“recklessly lend”! But Ireland recklessly borrowed!!

Ireland has taken on the full responsibility. That’s the issue: *full* responsibility.

As somebody else said on this forum, do you not think it’s a dangerous precedent if 100% of all bank losses are simply passed on to taxpayers?

@Declan Noonan. Ireland did not “wrecklessly borrow”. Throughout the boom years Ireland consistantly returned budget surpluses and had the lowest sovereign debt of any EU state.
This is the ‘Yes’ way to try and re-write history.
Private capitalist banks borrowed wrecklessly. Those same private banks, assured thousands of ordinary Irish citizens, that the money they in turn were borrowing was prudent and made financial sense. It was the bankers job to bank, not the carpenter, not the builder, not the nurse, teacher or green grocer! They have their own jobs to be doing. It is the bankers job to determine whether the money you want to borrow is a financially sound decision. Many ordinary people were led to believe it was, by the banks! Some people made mistakes, but by and large it was their one and only mistake. The banks made the same mistake thousands of times over, week after week.
Don’t try and rewrite history. This debt is not our debt.

this “reckless borrowing” effort from some of you is getting to me
I once borrowed enough money to buy a car , paid it all back,
got a small remortgage to do some home improvments, nearly all paid back,
worked hard and paid taxes most of my life, needed very little back from the State,

but I’m still being punished for “reckless borrowing”

any of you able to justify this please?.

I think a personal debt of some 185bn for the 4 million people in the country would suggest some reckless borrowing. with 95 bn being mortgage debt the rest is personal loans, credit cards. I didn’t go mad either. But some sure as hell did…

Declan, the German banks, or as they should be known unsecured bond holders lent to reckless Irish banks with the full knowledge that the ridiculous house of cards would collapse, and that they would be insulated from any loses. Now you and I are tasked with paying them back. Do you not feel a slight bit of anger, a no vote would have sent the correct signal that we are fed up of getting in the backside from the German jackboot. I’m tired of the nonsense about a yes vote promoting a more prosperous Ireland. It will only result in further indebtedness to German banks, further sales of national assets, Ireland will be asset stripped and sold for its constituent parts, bye bye my lovely isle.

The Germans aren’t on the pig’s back. Real wages and social welfare have been frozen for 10 years. People are basically forced to work in low wage jobs offered to them or else they get cut off.

They’ve raised their retirement age but they see Greeks retiring at 52….?

If you’re on welfare in Germany, it’s harder than here.

I agree Tom, a lot of Irish people spent all the cheap money borrowed from the banks like there was no tomorrow. Hopefully this is a wake up call to a lot of people who borrowed foolishly and I’m not talking about the unfortunate young people who were sold unmanageable mortgages. If nothing else our so called leaders will be held responsible for managing the economy and it’s finances. It was nothing short of insanity what went on in this country during the so called boom. A good prudent housewife would have done a better job than all the highly educated politicians, economists and advisers. Hopefully we’ll all come out the other side of this recession ok and a bit wiser.

its a pretty safe bet to assume that unless there are some seismic changes in europe and germany that Frau Merkel will go the same way as Sarkozy et al come the next GE’s in germany in Oct 2013 (which in politics is still a long way off)…….

the question is will her replacement be any better for us all ?

The euro has nothing to do with Greeks fixing there books and Irish running their banks like monkeys flying planes:) and all the contagion that follows

Throw a pair of glasses on her and she would make a great Anne Robinson.We are the weakest link.Goodbye…….

Yes indeed, and what an image we see at the top of this page, she looks like a smug mistress who won a Country in the lottery , all thats missing now is the hat & a leather whip, she got evil in her eyes, the very reason why Kenny becomes innately inferior in her presents.

The German establishment realize this, but most of their citizens don’t get it. They think they’ve just emerged from years of austerity only to see reckless foreigners demanding that they foot the bill for years of partying.

The biggest problem is lack of leadership from Germany, not some kind of hidden agenda.

If they were really as strong as people think, then Merkel should have insisted that Greece either stick to what they signed up to OR leave the euro. Did you notice that they didn’t do that? They’re still funding the Greeks.

What difference exactly would a no vote have made?

You do realise we have enshrined a German treaty into our constitution and these remarks show clearly that germany now know they run the show. We are now legally incapable of taking on them as we have enshrined their policy into our constitution. But hey, at least we have all that stability and investment to look forward to as we smother in the debt thats not ours that our overlords have now refused to even talk about! Great move!

We could have thrown s spanner in the works. We had something to bargain with..pay up or we go belly up and we’re taking you with us!

The deficit set about in the fiscal compact is exactly what we have set out for ourselves without it so again what difference would a no have made ?

If it’s exactly what we’d set out for ourselves then why bother with the treaty at all???

Calm down, folks. We lost. Get over it. The best option – just stopping borrowing and sorting ourselves out now – is still available to us.

Who made her dictator. The eurobond system should be voted on and put in place, it would appear that dead eyes Merkel is the only one opposed.

Yeah, I can just see 80m Germans voting to raise their country’s borrowing costs.

Merkel is correct on one point. Eurobonds are not a solution to this crisis. As with the LTRO’s, EFSF & ESM increasing the pile of debt in Europe may, at best, offer some, increasingly, temporary relief but ultimately deepen the crisis.
Any solution involves debt restructuring, but Merkel and our own “leaders” will not consider this.
The referendum presented the only opportunity for Irish voters to push this onto the table, but that opportunity was wasted unfortunately.

Spoke to a German friend of mine at the weekend. It was interesting to get the perspective. It was pretty much what you would imagine – putting yourself in their shoes: the other EU countries want Germany to foot the bill for their reckless spending without making any reforms in return. The retirement age in France and Greece was one example.

Of course the real situation is more complex than that. But attitudes are getting increasingly polarized and emotions are running high.

PS I believe we should have voted no to the fiscal compact, even though I broadly agree with the “stop the reckless spending” issue. The fiscal compact is not the answer we need.

Fine Gael have truly abandoned their roots. They’ve changed from being West Brits to West Germans.

Fed up of listening to that old tune. Cheer up, may never happen.

Merkel was saying all that long before the referendum, but the tide is turning against her. A no vote would’ve only strengthened German resolve to not help

Merkels slap in the face to Kenny & yes voters.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/merkel-minister-dashes-endas-bank-debt-reduction-bid-3127282.html

accidently red thumbed you Danny, completely agree – dump the Euro, it has become a failed experiment.

It’s okay, Ann. I think it’ll happen eventually but we have such indecisive leaders in Europe, they will wait until the only option is a chaotic disintegration.

It looks like a euro collapse is increasingly likely.

That said, it will be a disaster for Ireland in particular.

Not only will our debts still be in a hard currency. Our new currency will be exposed to speculators. Judging by our recent record we haven’t a hope in hell in managing that successfully.

It will also most likely lead to a collapse of the EU. Just look at how angry people are already.

The Germans want the Euro but are not willing to do what being in a currency union entails. Given that that is the case, the currency will break up.

I think that they accept that reality and are allowing the markets and banks to decouple from the 6-7 nations that should never have been in the currency. The frightening alternative is that they are genuinely believe that what they are doing is the right course and that they are also going to use it to achieve complete union in Europe.

This crisis is growing rapidly and is a significantly worse position than even a few years ago.

Less of that sensible talk around here, Stephen.

Yes Germany would be correct, if this wasn’t about the Union and not just them? Thanks for clarifying that Germany is merely thinking about itself while other partner nations are going through hell. Germany: Let’s leave people starve in Ireland, Spain, Greece and Italy. Lets leave citizens of these nations commit suicide due to debt issues caused by stagnating economies, after all if we were to lend a hand it would slightly increase our borrowing costs.

I am pro Europe, but if that’s what this farce of a “union” has come to I want out! Even your justification of such remarks proves how delusional some people have become! My God, I’m in awe at the lack of loyalty to Ireland and her people our citizens are showing! What is wrong with this God damn nation!

In short Diarmaid – me feinism.

I will never again buy anything that is manufactured in Germany. Where would they be if the rest of Europe stopped buying German cars and white goods. Hit them in their own pockets and put the German workers job on the line.

@Ann – you’ll be buying a lot of stuff that won’t work then….

Spain is looking for, most recent estimate, €200 billion to bailout it’s banks. Plus it’s expected to put €60 odd billion into the (as yet non-existent) ESM to access bailout funds.
Irelands exchequer borrowings have reached levels that cannot be managed or serviced by this economy.
Yet Europes proposed solutions have gone from ineffective to, now, farcical.
Putting the morality or injustice of the situation to one side. There is no credible solution on the table. This situation will blow up in Merkel’s face, and more importantly German taxpayers, when periphery nations begin to default on sovereign debts or their banks collapse. Whichever comes first, the other will definitely follow.

No deal on Spanish banks bailout.

http://www.financialpost.com/m/wp/news/economy/blog.html?b=business.financialpost.com/2012/06/04/spain-pushes-for-direct-eu-bank-bailout-as-germany-resists-2

Well put Stephen. Some just not prepared to accept the fact that Germany won’t countenance further support without strong fiscal rules. And we need them. Just to be clear, the treaty contents are not enshrined in our constitution as one commentator here keeps saying…

Yes O’Reilly, we just had a referendum that had nothing to do with the constitution. Dream on.

Just because the Greeks/Italians are wrong does not make Germany correct. They have to be more responsible if they want to stay in the euro. However, the German leaders are acting like a deer caught in the headlights. They know they’re exposed to a 1 trillion euro bill either way. They need to show more leadership or else the EU will be an historical footnote.

Spain has a strong hand. It’s real politik now.

O Reilly has our constitution changed because of the treaty? Careful now, cause I have proof here. I never once suggested that the whole treaty gets written into our constitution. Stop being so immature and read what I actually post! You’re just wrong, so give it up will ya please!

“We don’t need a European super state, which the European Union is seeking to establish … but rather a Europe and world consisting of hundreds or even thousands of tiny Liechtensteins and Singapores.”
Hans-Hermann Hoppe

Diarmuid, in lay man’s terms, tell the people what has changed in our constitution and how it changes the constitution of Ireland. If you wouldn’t mind…

No no, don’t divert the question, answer mine first please? Unless that is of course you now know you’ve been talking out your backside whilst accusing other people of doing that?

@ Gagsy…not at all, I have a Candy fridge freezer and condensor dryer which I bought 18 years ago both of which are still going strong.

Yes Diarmuid, in writing the clause allowing the oireachtas ratify the ESM it has changed. By 1 clause. Now, remind me again how, and I quote, those who voted yes have “enshrined a German treaty into our constitution”? You can do it in a German accent too. I don’t mind…

Diarmaid, give us all a rest. If it wasn’t for dishonesty from people like you, we might have convinced people to vote no.

Wow. O’Reilly admits the constitution had to be changed. The exact wording of the change is a blank cheque:

Article 29.4:[2]

10° The State may ratify the Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union done at Brussels on the 2nd day of March 2012. No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by the obligations of the State under that Treaty or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by bodies competent under that Treaty from having the force of law in the State.

In other words, the measures required by the treaty supercede our constitution.

It’s there in black and white. Where is the dishonesty?

Oh I am sorry Danny, didn’t realise you were the self appointed head voice of the no campaign. I’ll be sure to secure your permission before talking in future. O Reilly, you have just admitted that the treaty does make an amendement to our constitution after you accused me of being a liar not so long ago for stating the truth! Your credibility is now null and void!

Economics Prof says Spain requires €500 Billion:

“This contagion is spreading faster than we can stop now,” Blanchflower, an economics professor at Dartmouth and former Bank of England policy maker, said in a radio interview on “Bloomberg Surveillance” with Tom Keene and Ken Prewitt. “You need to do something in a week, and it would take these guys a year to work it out.”
With markets bracing for further deterioration in Spain’s finance sector and a possible Greek departure from the 17-member euro area, Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy on June 2 added his voice to calls for a “banking union” in Europe involving a centralized system to re-capitalize lenders.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel shut off another crisis- fighting avenue the same day as she toughened her opposition to euro-area debt sharing, saying that “under no circumstances” would she agree to euro bonds.
Paul De Grauwe, a professor at the London School of Economics & Political Science, has proposed a blanket bond markdown across Europe. European nations lack the cooperation required to execute such a plan, Blanchflower said.

Yields on German two-year notes fell below zero for the first time ever last week as investors fled riskier sovereign debt. Spanish bonds dropped for a fourth week, pushing the country’s 10-year yields above 6.5 percent — nearing the 7 percent threshold which triggered the three earlier bailouts.
Spain plans to sell bonds maturing in 2014, 2016 and 2022 on June 7. The amount hasn’t yet been set. Blanchflower estimates that the nation will need to raise about 500 billion euros ($625 billion).

Bloomberg

In your face O’Reilly. Danny, get down to the back of the class. There’s no arguing with Diarmaid when he’s on a rant. ;)

That and he is correct Under the Radar! ;)

Oh give over about the bloody vote. Maybe if the leftie vote no types had been honest with people rather than putting forward stupid dishonest arguments, we might have won.

When 25% of our debt is banking, what exactly do you mean by not ours?

That €40,000,000,000 that was owed to private institutions from private institutions that now forms part of our sovereign debt profile. Pretty obvious really?

Germany has paid all of it’s debts from both world wars and has taken full responsibility for it’s actions! It has since rebuilt itself up through hard work.

Thanks for the history lesson Declan, you will note that we have no problem paying our own debt either, just a problem with Europe being dictated to by Germany on fiscal prudence when it defaulted itself just 60 years ago (so it hasnt paid all its debts as you suggest?), when it begged the world for cash to rebuild its own country after a war it caused. So I am all for water under bridges and all that but perhaps Germany should learn some morals and humility as it condemns Irish children to paying €40,000,000,000 debt that it never accumulated!

Where are people coming up with this idea that only 25% of our debt is banking debt?

Yes, we do have a structural deficit. But that deficit alone is only responsible for a small fraction of our current debt.

Eh, declan, germany was also given free money under the marshall plan, the money handed over to germany post war for its recovery was not all loans by any stretch of the imagination.

Sorry Declan, not true.

“With only a few exceptions, all such demands were put on the backburner until Germany’s future reunification. For Germany, that was a life-saving gesture, and it was the actual financial basis of the Wirtschaftswunder, or economic miracle (that began in the 1950s). But it also meant that the victims of the German occupation in Europe also had to forgo reparations, including the Greeks.”

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/economic-historian-germany-was-biggest-debt-transgressor-of-20th-century-a-769703.html

And when German reunification was complete, did the Greeks get their war reparations? NOT A RED CENT!

What a nasty piece of work you are. Get over yourself.

Here we go. GODWIN’S LAW strikes again. What is it with people who can’t resist talking about the Nazis. It’s been over half a century now. Let it go!

Cohen’s Law then.

Mine is not an entirely specious claim on the basis of current behaviour.

Is Germany considering any possibilities other than its own? No.

Choice 3 is also pretty much capitalism.
What happens to the folks who do nothing and just eat their apples? When their apples are all gone they go and work for the guys with the seeds to get some more apples.
Also works with pears by the way.

Nice. You’re wishing suffering on all the evil yes voters? All 60% of them?
Maybe a good chunk of them will get cancer, that’d show em.

Not too soon, just too infantile. But, sure go ahead!

It shouldn’t just be about opinions. If people voted on information rather than opinions, they would saw that at best, there was nothing in the treaty to address the current crisis.

And what was inaccurate about it tell me Declan, can you point it out please?

Declan, some facts here – have a read:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/economic-historian-germany-was-biggest-debt-transgressor-of-20th-century-a-769703.html