I guess because they have the money and it’s their credit rating that would be put on the line if they were to sign up for this.
I agree with Eurobonds but it’s easy to see why the Germans may not…

That’s a pity, It seems there’s more profit to be made bailing out countries & charging 5% interest on the repayment.

Patrick, I’m sure the average tax payer in Germany is not expecting to get a lot of the money they’ve put into Greece back. There are better ways to make money than handing it over to distressed countries. Ask the bond markets.

Eurobonds is a a plan to borrow more money without producing more wealth rather than live within our means making the Debt Bubble bigger. I thought we were against 110% borrowing. Where do we all run to next when this fallacy plays itself out. There wont even be sand left to stick our heads in. Tom

We are a testing ground for the rest of Europe in an excersise that is clearly not working . Winston Churchill once said ” To tax your way out of a recession is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself off the ground by the handles “

Because we are letting them do so and we are not proposing any alternatives. Frau Merkel is running Europe only by default.

Just get them to share pin codes

He’s only hanging on to her coat tails hoping that at some stage she’ll give him the time of day.

It doesn’t matter who you vote for in Ireland.. There’s relatively nothing they can do. The democratic deficit is in Europe and the portion of our sovereignty which we have ceded to European prime ministers not electorally accountable to the Irish people.

It’s what happens when you half-ass a federation of countries. It just wasn’t set up right in the first instance.

And what are we going to do exactly. Eurobonds or a banking union isn’t just something that Ireland can do unilaterally…..

No David but its something that all of Europe outside germany is leaning to, we could have some balls and isolate merkel by pushing to go for it with or without her

I couldn’t agree more. Kenny had ample chances at bartering a better deal but blindly did as he was told! And bent over ireland to suit Ger/Franko bullies. Your spot on!

Iceland has a population of 150,000 and an abundance of natural resoruces. Comparing the economies is like chalk and cheese.

You said it in there, we are too small to ever have our interests served. Get out slowly and orderly.
Even the roumer of it would see a bank debt deal fly our way. Unfortunately our government haven’t a clue how to play economic poker like Greece and Spain.. For Merkel it must be like playing snap with a 4 year old.

Shayno

We are not Iceland. A country with it’s own currency and a smaller population than County Cork.

We are also not Spain, a country with a bigger gun than us.

And thankfully, we are not Greece. Very very thankfully.

@ Shayno

No I reckon for Merkel it’s like playing snap with a bunch of players who really don’t care if they win or not because their own personal bank balances are healthy and their financial future is secured. They are just playing snap as a PR stunt to appease the masses of people who are gullible enough to actually think the Irish government gives a sh!t about them!

Nice pic!

@ Peter: Thank you. You are absolutely right that Germany would, given half a chance, cut all of the indebted loose. Unfortunately for them, they do not have this option as they are too financially tied up in “bail out” funding. With hindsight, I can imagine that the powers-that-be would jump at the chance to go back in time five years and take a far more “hands off” approach to the crisis. Frau Merkel miscalculated. All of this “Fourth Reich” propaganda as you call it, which being spouted in certain corners, is absolute rubbish and has absolutely no basis in fact. To believe this is a simple act of ignorance, whether willful or accident.

Why, exactly? Because you personally don’t like the 90 million people living there? Or because they need to be punished for some transgression? And what would that be, exactly? Looking after their own interests? Contributing to bail-out funds from which Ireland and other countries have requested loans? Germany did not force Ireland to borrow, Ireland asked to borrow. Kick the ineffective Irish politician out of office before blaming other countries for looking after their own interests. Or do you believe that the world as a whole owes Ireland a pardon because, um, er, well, it’s Ireland?

Because they are part of the problem.

If we kicked Germany out we could print and devalue. Germany’s refusal to allow the ECB to print is what will bring the whole thing down.

I have no problem with the German people.

BTW – Germany did effectively force Ireland into a program. They also set the ‘rules’ whereby no bank was to be allowed to fail – which is why we ended up with Anglo.

Of course we as a nation must accept some responsibility for our banking mess, as ‘we’ elected the politicians who were supposed to be overseeing it all.

@ Karlswell The ECB actually did force Ireland into asking for a bail. So you are correct it was not Germany. I think what annoys most people is the requirement that the bank bailout be lent as sovereign debt the same mistake is going to be repeated with Spain’s request for a bank bailout. You can see from the markets reaction that they consider turning the bailout money into sovereign debt is not a good idea. The ECB needs to be able to lend directly to the banks in question, something that Germany is blocking currently. This will require a rule change I know but it needs to be done. Please remember people are suffering in Ireland due to the bailout programme so it’s not surprising that people are angry. Most in Ireland were not involved in the bad decisions made by politicians and bankers most who ironically are now retired and enjoying very generous pensions while the people of Ireland pay for their mistakes.

I’d agree all this talk about a Fourth Reich is rubbish.

@ Kerry – I would argue that neither Germany nor the ECB “forced” Ireland into a bailout. They did put a lot of pressure on Ireland to accept their terms, and this was what the ECB wanted, but I still believe the blame lies with the previous FF government. The nationalisation of the banking debt was agreed to by an Irish government elected by the Irish people. It was a terrible decision, they should not have accepted an agreement. They should have negotiated better better terms, but they did not, for whatever personal business reasons.

Merkel has followed an unwise set of policies, this has exasperated the crisis. But saying Germany is the problem is painfully simplistic. The problem is not Germany. The problem is that unregulated banking on the worldwide stage led to overspending by both governments and individuals. We were very happy with this in 2005, as we were reaped the short-term benefits. The few economists who spoke out were muzzled, and in some cases threatened with redundancy ( UCD ) or even threatened with legal action. We could have reined in the spending, but we didn’t. The pointing fingers at other countries will not help find a solution. It will only benefit certain politicial factions throughout Europe. who thrive on tensions and conflicts.

We can’t turn back the clock. We can’t simply say “I told you so” or “You shouldn’t have done that”. The only way forward is for the EZ member states to work together as equals to find a stable solution. It is a pity Merkel has chosen to add to the tensions rather than lessen them. Autumn 2013 will be telling for Germany, as Merkel will face a general election. Her career is resting on the German’s people’s perception of how she is handling the crisis. The effect on Ireland is that she will either search for a quick fix, or with try to delay any major decisions until after the election.

I understand that people are justifiably angry at the current situation, but, after a point, anger cannot be used to justify bigotry and ignorance. ( I say this as a general statement, this is not focused at any particular commenter here. )

@Karswell – the nationalization of the banks became inevitable the moment the Guarantee was issued, as we were unable to honour the Guarantee.

Anglo and the other zombies were included in the Guarantee because the ECB had made it clear (in the wake of Lehmans) that no banks were to be allowed to fail. Obviously there were other local political reasons but that fact alone made it a non-starter.

If we had allowed the zombies to fail a very large burden would have fallen on the German tax payer instead of the Irish taxpayer.

Germany has benefited more than anyone else from the Euro. Their intransigence is now the main source of the problem. Yes we need better and more centralized regulation and oversight but we also need real action now before it is too late.

@ Donal – again, we can’t just “kick Germany out”. The EZ is not a schoolyard gang where someone can say “We don’t like you anymore, you can’t be in our gang or play with our toys”. Be realistic. We could choose to leave, we cannot choose for other countries. We do still aspire to democracy, do we not?

Karswell, of course I realize that there is no actual mechanism for kicking Germany out.

However, the ‘if you don’t like what we want (need) to do, then leave’ line works both ways, especially if Germany is the only one who doesn’t like what we want to do.

The historic sources of the problem are not Germany’s fault, per se. But they are blocking solutions. The longer this blocking goes on, the less chance we will have to deploy those solutions.

@Donal – “If you don’t like what we want ( need ) to do, then leave”? Is this a quote? Who said this and in what context? The German government has been adamant that the Euro currency should be defended, and have clearly signaled that it is not their wish that any country leaves the EZ. In what situation was this said, or is this simply something you have written yourself but have but into inverted commas to make it seem that it is a quote?

Not only is there no mechanism for kicking a country out of the EZ, there should not be a mechanism for kicking a country out. The only way a country should leave the EZ is if that country itself chooses to leave. No country has the right to make such decisions for any other country.

“Germany is the only one who doesn’t like what we want to do” – please clarify a few points for me. Firstly, what is it that “we” ( presumably Ireland ) want to do? Secondly, have we ( the Irish people via the Irish government ) told the German government what we want to do? We cannot expect the German government to agree or debate something we have not proposed. No-one is a mind reader. Thirdly, how do you know that Germany doesn’t like what we want to do but all of the other countries in the EZ do like this ( as yet undefined ) idea?

I would be very grateful if you could give an answer to these queries, a I cannot agree or disagree with you if I do not know what you are talking about, a neat parallel to the situation above.

Good to see you have backed down from blaming Germany for all of our ills. I agree that Merkel has followed some ill-concieved policies, and these policies have made a bad situation worse. She is now facing a battle for re-election, so we should be looking at who could replace her.

@karswell – my use of quotes was in the same sense as your “toys” quote – to paraphrase a general sentiment.

The German Government may say they are adamant that the Euro should be defended but that does not necessarily mean that this is always how they will act.

Germany’s current stance is “this is how it is going, if you don’t like it leave” – my point is that we can turn that around and say “fine – the rest of us have decided that this is how it is going, if you don’t like it, leave”. (again – nobody said these things…)

When I say we, I mean, it is clear that Germany is now isolated in it’s objections to some of the solutions to the banking crisis that is threatening to destroy everything, for example by insisting on the the debt being carried by the Sovereigns instead of the ECB, or by refusing to allow the ECB to print and buy sovereign bonds. These are proposals that are supported by France, Spain etc.

I never blamed Germany for all of our ills.

Germany is not equal to Nazi Germany. You also ignore that many of the Jewish people who were murdered by the Nazis were German citizens. Many of the homosexuals were German citizens. Many of the physically and mentally disabled were German citizens. The Nazis did not consider the victims as German, but the victims themselves considered themselves German. The Nazis were not Germany. The Nazis tried to destroy Germany. We here in germany must deal with this part of our history. We do not hide it or deny it. It is very easy and very cheap for you to use this as a fist, but it makes you a cheep person by using this. Irish history also has dark moments, but these moments are not used to attack Ireland. Play fair.

Your way out of order with those comments…if we all trawled through every countries past , there are very few that could their head above the parapet…

I can’t help but feel if you were a German taxpayer you wouldn’t say that!

I see another bridge is without its troll today.

stupid comment there Patrick have you no pride?
if they won’t share the burden of our private banking debt enda should start breaking a few of the conditions of the bailout to get their attention.
we can’t continue to cripple our country like this. Im certain if he were to start breaking the conditions a bit he would force their hand just like Spain and Greece has done.

“Stupid comment there Patrick have you no pride?” Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha Are you suggesting Irish people have pride? The same people who have consistently gave away their sovereignty, independence and identity. You have the audacity to suggest the Irish are proud?? I suppose being a state and no longer having independence in a federal state is pride eh?…Possibly the most ridiculous comment I have ever read on the journal., well done lol

Paula, who are you to say we have no pride? I firmly believe it is your comment that is the most ludicrous I have ever read. What kind of defeatist, bent over, stand alone, sad person are you? Who are you to say we have no pride? It’s people like you that make me sick to think you actually exsist. And then to boast about it, you sad sad person.

@paula Im sure even during british rule Irish people had pride in Irish identity and ‘irishness’. Regardless of the current political situation, everyone should be proud to be Irish. People like yourself who had no respect or pride of what it means to be Irish should be ashamed of themselves. A politician can not say you can no longer be an Irishman, regardless of who makes our political decisions…that’s is something they can never take from us.

that’s a disgrace lol