@Glen- the Irish people played their part in creating the debt too; borrowing money from banks that they couldn’t pay back and consistently rewarding Fianna Fáil for buying elections. I’m sorry- but it’s true.

If you’re not aware of how democracy works, The Irish Government is the elected representative of the Irish people. They’re pretty much doing their job.

O bankers in Jail, their salaries gone up 4%, three tougher budgets to go, time to resist the Home & Water Taxes http://www.independent.ie/national-news/emigration-at-famine-levels-as-200-leave-country-each-day-3339480.html

Vincent, what were people supposed to do not buy homes? People need homes for there families! Its up to the banks and their regulators (the government) to ensure the housing markets are kept in check and sensible borrowing is carried out. You’re completely wrong the government and the banks are entirely to blame. The people at the top of the banking systems allowed things to get out of hand so they could get their big bonuses and retire wealthy, leaving the increasing mess for the next guy who continued in the same fashion until it fell apart. If anyone besides them are to blame its the building contractors that where caught out. I can only presume you are associated to the banks in some way.

@Thomas- the problem with your argument is that I lived through the Celtic Tiger. I witnessed the gluttony and the excess. The greed. The keeping up with the jones’. This country went crazy. And your attitude is what caused it. It’s up to the banks to make sure people don’t borrow too much? They’re our parents are they? There’s such a thing as personal responsibility. I don’t remember seeing any bankers pulling out a gun and forcing a customer to take out a €10,000 Credit Card or a loan for the BMW. This country is doomed to repeat its mistakes as long as the culture of blaming a tiny subset for all our woes pervades. Cue the mass: ” well I didn’t go mad….” responses.

@Vincent – personal debt is minuscule part of Ireland’s recently reduced €15bn budget deficit . The ten fold of trillions of dollars/euro created during economic boom is paper wealth. Otherwise termed as an asset bubble. During the asset bubble bust which inevitably follows economic boom, ordinary people repay all this with hard currency. Hard currency taken from their monthly incomes coupled with massive cuts to services. This is inherently wrong. Morally unjust. If this austerity is a success it will perpetuate this cycle of inflating artificial wealth to dangerous levels which will be repaid by citizens that have not got the means to justify it. Radical change is required to the global monetary system.

@ Darragh – a reliable FG canvasser.

@Mojo- first indicator of a clown? They think anyone who disagrees with them is automatically a troll. You’re wearing a novelty flower on your lapel right now that squirts water into people’s faces, aren’t you?

@Vincent The ordinary Irish person is still expected to pay back what he /she borrowed, and has very little to do with the state of the banks at present, although that may not be true as we are screwed further by government, and may end up defaulting in huge numbers

@Thomas- to be clear, no bank connection whatsoever other than having a mortgage.

I also lived through the Celtic Tiger. Ireland developed a culture where people were told if they didn’t buy now they would miss the boat. A culture was created where people were made to feel as if they were losing out by not buying homes and getting their foot on the ladder. Ireland had banks that financially rewarded managers and staff who lent the most amount of money. That was very wrong and ordinary people are now paying the price. Ordinary people weren’t being greedy, they were trying to do what was right.

It is a sad state of affiairs when a magazine represents a countrys interests instead of its elected politicians.

@ian- I don’t disagree with any of your points other than the idea that Michael Noonan isn’t working day & night to achieve exactly what is outlined in the Economist.

Ian spot on, that’s hit the nail on the head. Now Vincent…, maybe u were trying to keep up with the jones but I wasn’t, I was only buying house while it was possible…

If u can’t see that this was all a setup then pull the blinkers down…. This was a setup, it was all planned to take down all of the PIGS countries…. And start asset stripping them… Here’s a very simple explanation of how it was planned…..

Introduce the euro….
As a result Interest rates in PIGS country were dramatically reduce…
Control for individual country’s to adjust their interest rate were removed…
Germany/France sets the interest rate for all EU countries based on their own needs at that time… Which never suited the PIGS…
Property prices rising fast…
Banking Regulators paid off with cash, swanky dinners and champagne parties, holidays abroad etc to remain in a coma…. .
Irish government overdosed on sleeping pills.. Pissed as coyotes… And Out for the count
Banks Flood the country with cheap money… Insane lending to property developers…
Insane lending to individuals…
90% mortgages + 100k for furniture + 50k for car…. Ah go on take it…
100% mortgages
105% mortgages
Bank regulators and government still asleep… Bertie says Get on the ladder or commit suicide….
Then one day when enough fiat currency had been borrowed and the supply shut off in a deliberate act of terrorism the only possible outcome is a huge crash. Yes turn the money tap off and bang… SETUP

Borrowing money from banks that they couldn’t pay back? But surely the banks shouldn’t have lent to them then? So the banks didn’t operate their business well and should suffer, not the Irish taxpayer. And the European banks that willingly lent to the Irish banks? They didn’t do a very good risk analysis did they? They should lose their investment then. Why are we paying for it?

@Mark- when I walk into a bank manager I presume he’s going to do what he can to make my money, his banks money. I exercise free will when I go in there and exercise my own judgement. Are you confusing a banker with your mommy or the parish priest. Because its not their job to make sure you’re ok. Be careful out there, man. If you go into a car dealership they might try & sell you a car!!! And like there’s no way to refuse.

Vincent, thanks for the condescending tone. I’ll try to not sink that low. You seem to confuse a bank loan with buying an apple. In reality the customer applies for a loan and is approved/rejected upon the banks analysis of the ability of the customer to repay, that is, the risk involved. If the customer can’t pay, the risk is that they may lose their house. However if the bank makes a series of bad loans, the risk is that they will go out of business. Or so it should be. Does that explain my point?

Another classic from vincent the banker…

So when the bank fu**s up why do we the taxpayer pay for there mistakes…. No or very few individuals have had any debt forgiveness… Enlighten me if u know otherwise…. We’re still on the hook for the money borrowed…

@Mark- your point that in a market economy a bank should be allowed fail is well made. Why are we paying for it? Because it was ALL our banks. And we simply couldn’t let AIB, BOI, TSB and Anglo fail. Letting Lehman Brothers fail was a huge mistake in the US. None of this takes away from my core argument that the Irish people played their part in the bloating of the banks by taking loans that they couldn’t pay back. In that respect a loan is like buying an apple. Don’t try to buy it if you can’t pay for it. Fianna Fáil did the same thing- as duly elected representatives of the Irish people they took on the loans of the Irish banks even though arguably we can’t afford to pay it back. These were all mistakes made by Irish people.

@vincebt, the irish people IMO are at max 5% responsible….. I’m interested/curious on the level of responsibility u place on them????

I absolutely agree that we, as Irish people, have to take responsibility for our greed, including myself even though I didn’t get caught up in it. I’m Irish so I’m in it with everyone.

But I absolutely refute that we couldn’t let the banks fail. We’re a small nation. We could do with one State bank. Guarantee deposits up to 50%, that takes care of the hit for the greedy Irish. Take over the mortgage portfolio in exchange. Then we have a manageable debt.

Yes FF were in power when this happened and they didn’t take this road. For that they (we?) are to blame. But to defend FG now when they are just compounding error after error is inexcusable. It has become apparent that Trichet told FF that they must guarantee the banks and that we would be looked after. Every time the bank guarantee was to expire the Govt were instructed to renew it, costing more every time. We acceded. Have we been looked after? No. Did FG ask for a deal? We are told NO. How can you defend this? Enda Kenny is selling us out on a daily basis, he shows no guts or leadership and is not fighting for the people that elected him. The rich continue to get richer and the poor and middle income take the hit. Still no bankers or developers have been charged. He accepts without question what the Troika and Merkel demand, getting his ‘good boy’ awards. How is he helping the Irish? We need radical thinking to get us out of this mess and it won’t come from him or his cohorts.

Well done Enda & co, leading us back to recovery! Gotta make tough choices to do it but we understand

Over 70% of public servants earn less than the average industrial wage and a large chunk of thise earn less than 20K. You need to stereotype less and change your name if you want to remark on the subject of public service pay.

My name is ScrapCrokePark1. Had it changed by deed poll. Where do u get the 70% figure from? Most PS on less than average industrial wage are job sharing. Two people sharing one job where no job is necessary at all in many cases. The proof is in the CPA. No compulsory redundancies. If the jobs were really necessary they would not need that clause. Sorry if that offends but someone had to say it

@Scrap Croke Park 1……….

…yawn

@Scrap Croke Park 1.

I refuse to be drawn into a Private v Public argument. But your populist diatribe is annoying.

I know plenty of workers job sharing in the Private Sector. By your reasoning, their jobs should at best be reduced to one full time job too. THINK. What section of society do you think this fantastically populist idea would affect most? Is it your intention to damn all of that section of society to the dole queue?

Your arguments are sweepingly broad and generally offensive to the vast majority of Public Servants who are entirely grateful that they have a job that goes some little way toward paying for life.

You might glean some sadistic comfort from your apparent support on this forum, but I really wish you would steer clear of generalisations about me.

@glass half full. Sorry thought u were gone for a wee nap there.

I know nobody in the private sector who job shares – not saying they don’t exist, just don’t know any or even know of any.

Despite what u may think of me, I am not a public service basher for the hell of it. It’s just that there are so many quangos paying super star salaries that the mind boggles. I’ve several hundred examples of quangos but here is just a small number.

The CEO of the Railway Procurement Agency is on a package of €225k pa. His 268 staff share an average salary of €70,500. His board members (some of whom are on other state boards) charge an average of almost €1,000 for each meeting they attend.

The head of bord failte is on a salary of €168k pa and “is entitled to retire at 55″. Trigger pension and his new replacement.

Dick Spring, already on a pension of €121k is parachuted onto the AIB board as a public interest director and charges €59k for 60 days work. There’s no job description. But that’s ok – he assures us he’s worth it.

Now my question is: who is supposed to pay for all this?

You can choose to not get into a public vs private argument if u wish, but that’s putting your head in the sand.

@Scrap Croke Park 1.

Then perhaps you should change your name to @Scrap Quangos 1 “by deed pole”.

If I were one of those couple of hundred odd quango members I would certainly not be participating here. I am not, but I am covered by your posts and the content of your observations.

Job sharing is very popular in the banking sector, and I know others who job share in computing and accountancy. It suits their family life, and if the business doesn’t suffer (which I presume it doesn’t) then fair play to them.

Your mantra covers the 300k odd public servants! Generally, and in very general generalisations!

…and no. I won’t take part in a public versus private debate. It’s pointless. We as a public, total, are all affected by the current economic situation. That is why I welcome news of the nature of the above headline.

We should scape croke park ( public servant) , it protects those on inflated wages and not the general population of employee, nurses and guards are often used as a reason to keep croke park, however they can look after themselves and are needed, some on inflated wages are not needed

@glass half full. I also consider any PS on over 125k cannon fodder. I’d like anyone over that reduced by 20%. If still over that examine if role is needed at all. If not, adios.

@shay. 100%. Croke Park agreement is designed to protect the higher paid, not the lower paid. 600+ in HSE on over 70k will get increment this year. That’s not 600+ ON 70k. It’s 600+ on OVER 70k.

@Scrap Croke Park 1

That’s really lovely.

And you know what?

I’d really like my banking friends to lose their Christmas bonus. Their company cars. Their corporate six nations tickets and their GAA finals tickets. (they damn well still get them and it kills me).

Because I don’t get any of those perks! And you know what? You and I are paying for them! Terribly awkward isn’t it? But Sod It, they’re happy. They’re on a modest wage, they are nice people and they are nice things to have. And I wish them every joy.

…And I live in the real world.

I don’t know what these people you list ‘do’ on a day to day basis. And I agree that their wages sound outlandish. But being named by you indicates one thing. Their numbers are small and that means they are ‘small beer’ in the ‘overall’ scheme of things.

I don’t know how I’m going to pay for Christmas. It’s done now, and today I’m looking at bills that I just can’t afford.

This isn’t aimed at you, but generally. Please! Lose the Public versus Private argument. This is a battle, and we are in it together, and please God we will see the far side of it!

@glass half full. Banks should serve the economy. Right now it’s all backwards.

There are 861 people in AIB earning over 100k pa. I’d like to see most of them go. Crazy situation. As for their perks and tickets. I KNOW it’s still going on. Grrr. Banks make me sick.

Hope u get to grips with the Xmas bills. Tough time of year.

The Irish Government manage the biggest property portfolio in the world. Who much would you expect to be paid to do that?

That’s just press spin about NAMA. The biggest property portfolio in the world belongs to Blackstone which manages €114 billion worth of assets. NAMA has assets with a nominal value of €74 billion.

That’s correct. NAMA is a branch of the government. Government Buildings, hospitals, Garda Stations etc. but I’ll take your point and revise:

One of the the biggest.

I saw this comment too and it just makes me wonder what Island of Ireland these people are living on ?
It certainly is not the same Island of Ireland that I or my family and friends live on .

Recession = 3 consecutive months of negative growth. The uk was in recession last year. We weren’t. Simple

Two consecutive quarters not 3 consecutive months.

Tut. Tut. Tut. How dare the Economist point out that we’re beginning to reverse out of the ditch that Bertie & Brian drove us into! Do they not understand that a huge swathe of the population would rather moan about how tough things are than recognise that we’re turning the corner?????

What corner is that, we’re still paying bank debt, still it’s mostly carers and those who are ill

@Shay- yes, we are. We’re paying debts racked up by Irish people, Irish banks and an incompetent Fianna Fáil Government. Remember that ditch I mentioned? It’s a big one. And I did say “starting”.

“Beginning”

@vincent, be clear of your definition of Irish people, I think your referring to Irish elite, yet we are all expected to shoulder this burden, you take risk and succeed you may get rewarded, but if you mess up we all pay, sorry but I’m not feeling the fairness

Ciaran
Thanks for the technical definition of a recession. Isn’t it extraordinary that the majority of people’s who whinge on this site have no understanding whatever of even basic economics but they carry on as if they had a Masters from Oxford.
The reality of our situation is quite interesting. Employment in Ireland actually grew in 2012 and the inflows of people from outside the EEA exceeded seventy thousand. Interesting to note that they all had obtained work visas so it is reasonable to assume they are working. We know for certain that they cannot draw monies from Social Protection.
Now watch the red thumbs as they attack the troll with FACTS.

@ Michael J Collins (sic)

The CSO data for 2012 is not out yet, so your so-called ‘facts’ are from where exactly?

Also, you are not giving net figures for immigration/emigration, so your comment is pretty meaningless unless it was your intention to confuse readers & imply some ideological point?

God knows why anyone would give ‘green’ thumbs for your arrogant rubbish?

Mike
Your comments statistically are meaningless when you use the word net instead of nett and indicate a huge misunderstanding on your part.firstly the CSO is definitely not the only game in town for data collection. The immigration data was piblished by the Department of Justice this week and referred specifically to Visa applications it had approved during the year and for which it had received the necessary fees. The employment statistics were published by the Department of Labour.
I’m not trying to confuse anyone Mike but if that is your problem then you shouldn’t be so aggressive with someone posting facts. Either go to evening classes for a couple of years or get some form of relaxation therapy.

Cairn. Very interesting facts. Where do they all work. Has the numbers at work increased ? Do they ay tax in Ireland?

@Noel, nor did I. I was speaking in generalities. But the electorate did keep returning FF, not quite a majority but as close as you get in Ireland and come on- you know what I’m talking about when I say the country went mad. It was obscene. And we all knew it. The country got drunk on credit and our designated driver, Bertie drove us straight into the ditch.

Vincent I dont like the look of Enda’s body language in that pic, are you sure hes up for this

@Frank- are you sure he’s not? For a “Gombeen man”, how is it he has risen to the top of Fine Gael, become Taoiseach and is now running rings around Eamon Gilmore in Government. I know the country would be happier if he was banging his fist on the table and issuing threats. But there’s more than one way to skin a cat. His rise would suggest that he knows how to get what he wants.

haha not too hard eamon is feathering!. Not being a shinner about it but i like the way mcguinness holds himself.
i hope that he has had a hand in putting this in the economist (you will claim he did anyway) but its a good tactic and one i wont knock. be even better if he speeded up the bank enquiry though

Noel
I didn’t either but I didn’t hear you screaming for them to stop and I certainly didn’t either. In fact we boasted to any non Irish that would listen to us about the Celtic dream. We bragged that we were the wealthiest EU Nation on a per capita basis after Luxembourg. We told anyone within hearing that our per capita income in 1973 when we joined the EU was only sixty five per cent.
Interesting the way we all want to say it was about somebody else and thus not our fault. Thank God we have real politicians who can take the real decisions to bring sanity to our denials.

@Noel- no arguments except for the idea that people can’t be blamed for being greedy. You pay your bills. You don’t borrow if you can’t definitely pay it back. And you certainly don’t ask me to pay it back for you.

Haha..but isn’t that what the banks are asking us to do?

@Mark- That ship has sailed. FF did that deal. It’s done. When you spit out the words “the banks”, remember that the banks are now state owned (BOI aside). As taxpayers, we own them. Whatever punishment etc you want to visit on them will only rebound on us as taxpayers. All we can do now is send the individual perpetrators to jail. As a country we let them get too big to fail. Now we’ve to take our medicine. It’s not right. But here we are.

All true Michael..if it was just a case of a housing slump in Ireland. However we’re talking about the country being forced to pay for Irish and European banks who went bust.

They are “fixed” alright, for the ECB owners, to drain wealth out of the citizens. The exact same Ponzi fiat currency scheme is still in place, we just went through the payoff phase with the recapitalisations. Nothing has changed. Noonan and Kenny will hand the bank back to the private financiers now that they are re stocked with our money, or more accurately our debt.

Well said Mike.

@ Mike, you throw that out a lot.

Is everybody that disagrees with you, a troll?

@ Howsaboutya… Not at all, but there are a few that seem to have taken a shine to me.
I genuinly have no problems with having a difference of opinion and highly respect the views of others.

A novel strategy there, Petr. Cant believe no one else thought of that. I think that’s under “Biting the hand that feeds you” in Economics 101.

Who are they?

The magical fairies from conspiracy land?

Is that you Jim Corr ?

Rothschilds

Your mocking of Jim Corr and other conspiracy whack jobs diminishes every day as reality unfolds. Keep your head in the sand and pay all your new taxes and charges to pay your banking masters.

Agreed Stephen … The Government release spurious and totally inaccurate information as headlines, but when you read the details, you see that they don’t have a clue. Ask any of them an honest question on their decision making process, and you are either labelled a Shinner or a Looney left … or even better, they tell you they had to do it, because the Troika told them to do it.
They are even worse than a ‘man down’, in that if the IMF were running the country in totality, the budgets would have targgetted those that could afford it most and limited the pain on those that have the least. With FFG/Labour in there, they are continuing to serve vested interests, with the like of Denis O’Brien and others making more money now, paying less tax than ever before. That is what you get when you vote for FFG/FF/Labour.

@cal1- maybe we should tip into the Northern Bank and make a withdrawal as others do to raise funds?

@vincent. Enda and Eamonn play that card a lot too. It’s a truly pathetic strategy and used by them in their amateurish attempts too dodge issues. I can’t even red thumb u for that as its beneath any grading whatsoever.

Enda is an institutionalised gombeen buffoon nit wit who wouldn’t survive a day outside his cosy cocoon in the Dáil. He is an abject failure as a leader by any yard stick. A pathetic coward of a man who cannot engage in any form of live debate because, well let’s face it, the lift doesn’t go all the way to the top. The sooner that sorry shower are gone the better. And I actually voted for them for the first and last time in my life

@scrap- the proof is in the pudding. Interest rate reduced, deficit reduced, bank deal on the way, house price recovery, domestic spending increasing, employment stabilised, sovereign borrowing rates dramatically reduced and the Troika soon to be dispatched home and our economic sovereignty restored. All of the above are monumental achievements recognised internationally. If this Government aren’t meeting your expectations, maybe you should have a look at what your expectations.

Be here in 2013 http://youtu.be/YvSr5f-EiBQ

None of that is true. A “deal” is not an extension of the loan period or a rate reduction. It’s a write down.

I suspect Gilbore will fall at the labour convention replaced possibly by that other clown Keaveney who knows he’s a dead duck next election with his constituency Galway east losing a seat.

Property tax in July. Another austerity budget October. Election December.

@scrap- no election. Labour walking from Government now would be like Turkeys voting for Christmas. Much better to front load all the tough calls and go to the people in 3 years contrasting the Ireland the inherited with the much improved Ireland of 2016. Then they can pull the “put us in to keep FG honest” card and maximise their vote.

Vicent keep believing the head lines…. If u believe what u just wrote then I can’t put it into words what I think… Dumbfounded I guess…. We’re all gonna be fine, green shoots and property stabilizing….

If only one lesson should have been learned by now it surely should be that we would never ever trust any politician from Ff/FG/Lab or any of the spin spun or any coverage TD’s are given by the media…. If we somehow get out of this financial mess… It won’t have had anything to do with how the government handled it… it will be by fluke… We’re so in debt I personally think we can’t pay it all back…. A few years ago at about 100 to 150 billion we may have had a good chance but no not now…. To indebted…

@Mojo- 1). The points I made are facts rather than conjecture. 2). The Economist article is but the latest pointing to Ireland’s progress. So you don’t have to believe me. Or the “headlines”. Just watch our borrowing rates fall (investors putting their money where their mouth is) and the Troika getting on a plane out of here. It’s sad that the international community has more faith in Ireland than so many of our own people like you.

Do u not know who owns this Economist magazine????

Of course the interest rates are falling and binds being bought… As we have seen all bonds will be paid by the tax payer… It’s a win win with no risk… If I had money I would buy Em…

Back your facts with credible sources please.

We can’t extract it. We don’t have the technology. No money for anybody.

Of course we could, get expertise from Venezula, Finland etc. we have been given false advice to say it is non viable, yet it’s viable for private companies – how is that? Some people still can’t see how we as a nation have been hood winked.

All Economist readers should of course know ‘an cupla focal’

Well it’s not his official title, but it is what he is. Not that many readers of the Economist went to an Irish primary school. Calling the Taoiseach the prime minister isn’t necessarily an ignorant mistake. The leader of China is often referred to as the premiere, but I’d be surprised if that was what they call him in Mandarin.

Mmmm tangerines