Despite what politicians think, governments can’t create (real) jobs. They’d achieve a whole lot more by cutting employment taxes and useless red tape and stop dreaming up yet more silly laws and schemes to bog down genuine entrepreneurs. But sure, where’s the glory for our politicians in that? They’d much prefer to ‘create’ empty jobs by pissing away our taxes on pet projects.

Exactly. Governments do not create genuine sustainable jobs.

Yeah, silly red tape and regulations. Who needs em.

Yeah, public services aren’t real jobs and aren’t sustainable. I mean who’s gonna need teachers, guards and nurses in 30 years time.

…still short of closing the gap of €11bn between income and expenditure as this isn’t contained on the balance of payments.

im sure those billions wouldnt have been missed in such an amazing economy as ours.

Actually, we wouldn’t ignoreland. We’re paying 18 billion out to bondholders this year, and 17 billion next year.

I normally side with the government but wasn’t the whole point of paying bondholders because it gives us a better chance of getting a deal on our debt? That doesn’t appear very strong in our favour, on its own legs without being a knock on effect from a Spanish bailout, so I am sure the money should and could have been spent elsewhere.

Just my thoughts.

We’d have the IMF/EU money cut off, we’d be officially bankrupt, Foreign Direct Investment would leave, we’d have no money in our ATM machines and we’d wish we were Greek. Is that what you meant?

actually werejammin the 18 billion we paid to the bondholders was borrowed from the IMF. If we didn’t have to pay bondholders then we would not need no where near as much from the IMF. we paid out 1 billion to the bondholders this week but last week the IMF approved a further 1 billion of the total fund to us. Can you see a link there between the two. All things aside from banking and bondholders the real figures are what we take in tax as a country Vs what we spend to keep the country running ie mainly the public sector. The banking guarantee was sold to us as a You need this to keep the country going, when in fact that was not true

Killian do you really believe that stuff you have posted? Google Iceland and any other country that has got into difficulty You might sleep better and not scare others with ill informed statements.

Money was borrowed from the EU/ECB Simon not the IMF. Join the dots….

Kerry … I think you’ll find that 1/3 of the monies came from the IMF. (International Monitory fund) there’s a little hint in the name there. maybe your missing a few dot’s yourself. and stop I’ll informing people yourself.

It’s the current account basically. Bank debt is separate to this as far as I know. In fact I think the bank debt is “only ” about 30% of the total debt.

€36 million went to bailing out CIE from the Dept of transport, tourism and sport budget.

And do you think that will be enough? I doubt it – 10sih% of the 15ish% unemployed are not long term unemployed. I’m sure many people who became unemployed over the last few years have been in and out of jobs in that time too. So really you’re talking about chasing the 5% or so. I’m sure not all of that 5% are the “spongers” you’re referring to either.

I wouldn’t disagree that the undeserving should be targeted, just pointing out that the majority of those unemployed at the moment simply don’t want to be.

Are you saying that the unemployed are spongers ?

Rodrigo

You are absolutely correct …….about three billion a year for the next three years and then we can start to inflate the economy with monies the markets will lend us. At that stage we will essentially have recovered our sovereignty. This will be achieved on the backs of unstinting and fair minded people together with an unflinching Government unafraid of the whingers and the naysayers and the wasters.
Congratulations on seeing the light.

As per the other story in which you posted the petition link:
Catherine, can you please outline what shape the Irish government will take if this petition where successful in removing the current coalition?
(I’ve never had an answer to this question)

Well if this petition was to work and the current government did step down.

Then in my opinion I would form a government party of a younger generation who want what’s best for the citizens of Ireland.

This in my opinion would give way for people to come forward and express what they would like to happen within the country.

I already have outlined a number of proposals to reform government procedures and reduce money being wasted!!!
(Not here)

I don’t have all the answers and probably never will, but I love my country and I’m sure the people living here do too, I am sick to death of the government cutting money from the bottom up and leaving the rich and themselves to swan around on whatever they like.

They have taken the sovereignty of this country away from it and its people and handed it over to Germany to with what they like.

Article 1 of the constitution;
The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and SOVEREIGN RIGHT to choose its own form of government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.

Enda Kenny is in government over one year and has already sold our constitution out of this country as we do not have our sovereignty any more!

Why not start working on the new plan anyway Catherine? A least it would be a different option for the country.

The young people are the ones who’ll be picking up the bill for all this anyway, and if we think things are bad right now … we ain’t seen nothing yet.

@Catherine – people find it quite hard to sign petitions for things like this when no “end game” is defined. How can you in good conscience encourage people to sign up to the idea of “lets bring down a government and replace it with….. umm…… ahhhh…… something else……”

I find it much more preferable to actually have elected representatives do their jobs.

@ Tomy Iona

- really and where has the elected governments got us so far?

Corruption in Ireland started when Charlie haughey came into government.

Financial scandals
Haughey’s personal wealth and extravagant lifestyle – he owned racehorses,[34] a large motor sailing yacht Celtic Mist, a private island, and a Gandon-designed mansion – had long been a point of curious speculation; he had refused throughout his career to answer any questions about how he financed this lifestyle on a government salary.[35] Despite his professed desire to fade from public attention, these questions followed him into retirement, eventually exploding into a series of political, financial and personal scandals tarnished his image and reputation.
In 1997, a government-appointed tribunal led by Judge Brian McCracken first revealed that Haughey had received substantial monetary gifts from businessmen, and that he had held secret offshore bank accounts in the Ansbacher Bank in the Cayman Islands. Haughey faced criminal charges for obstructing the work of the McCracken tribunal.[36][37] His trial on these charges was postponed indefinitely after the judge in the case found that he would not be able to get a fair trial following prejudicial comments by the then PD leader and Tánaiste Mary Harney.[38]
In 1997 the public were shocked by allegations that Haughey had embezzled money that was a subvention to the Fianna Fáil Party; money that was from central Government’s taxpayer’s funds for the operation of a political party and that he had spent large sums of these funds on Charvet shirts and expensive dinners in a top Dublin restaurant while preaching belt-tightening and implementing budget cuts as a national policy.[39]
The subsequent Moriarty Tribunal delved further into Haughey’s financial dealings. In his main report[6] on Charles Haughey released on 19 December 2006, Mr. Justice Moriarty made the following findings:
Haughey was paid more than IR£8 million between 1979 and 1986 from various benefactors and businessmen, including £1.3 million from the Dunnes Stores supermarket tycoon Ben Dunne alone.[35] The tribunal described these payments as “unethical”.[40]
In May 1989 one of Haughey’s lifelong friends Brian Lenihan, a former government minister, underwent a liver transplant which was partly paid for through fundraising by Haughey. The Moriarty tribunal found that, of the £270,000 collected in donations for Brian Lenihan, no more than £70,000 ended up being spent on Lenihan’s medical care. The tribunal identified one specific donation of £20,000 for Lenihan that was surreptitiously appropriated by Haughey,[41] who took steps to conceal this transaction.[42][43]
The tribunal found evidence of favours performed in return for money – Saudi businessman Mahmoud Fustok paid Haughey £50,000 to support applications for Irish citizenship.[40]
In other evidence of favours performed, the tribunal reported that Haughey arranged meetings between Ben Dunne and civil servant Seamus Pairceir of the Revenue Commissioners. These discussions resulted in an outstanding capital gains tax bill for Dunne being reduced by £22.8 million. Moriarty found that this was “not coincidental”, and that it was a substantial benefit conferred on Dunne by Haughey’s actions.[44]
Allied Irish Banks settled a million-pound overdraft with Haughey soon after he became Taoiseach in 1979; the tribunal found that the lenience shown by the bank in this case amounted to an indirect payment by the bank to Haughey.[40]
The tribunal rejected Haughey’s claims of ignorance of his own financial affairs[39] and Haughey was accused by the tribunal of “devaluing democracy”.[40]
Haughey eventually agreed a settlement with the revenue and paid a total of € 6.5 million in back taxes and penalties to the Revenue Commissioners in relation to these donations.[45] In August 2003 Haughey was forced to sell his large estate, Abbeville, in Kinsealy in north County Dublin for €45 million to settle legal fees he had incurred during the tribunals.[46] He continued to live at Abbeville and own the island of Inishvickillane off the coast of County Kerry until his death.

Then their was Bertie ahern ( go on to tv3 specials)
Just look at the suicide comment he made towards the Irish citizens
- I mean it took 10 years for the Mahon Tribunal to figure out he was fleecing the country

Then Brian Cowen

Taoiseach: 2008–11

Upon appointment, Cowen formed the 28th Government of Ireland out of a coalition of Fianna Fáil, the Green Party, the Progressive Democrats, and initially three independent TDs. His choices of Mary Coughlan for Tánaiste and Brian Lenihan, Jnr as Minister for Finance were criticised as inappropriate by The Irish Times for their “distressing” lack of experience.[38]
[edit]Treaty of Lisbon
Main article: Twenty-eighth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 2008 (Ireland)
The Irish electorate’s rejection of the ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon on 12 June 2008 was viewed by some media and political observers as a protest against Cowen and his government.[39] The Irish Independent called the failed referendum’s aftermath the government’s “biggest political crisis in decades.”[40] Columnist Brendan O’Connor called the outcome “a humiliating failure for Cowen and the people who put him there.”[41][42] The Taoiseach himself arguably dealt a damaging blow to his own side when, on 12 May 2008, he admitted in a radio interview that he had not read the Treaty of Lisbon in its entirety.[43] The treaty was eventually approved by Irish voters when the successful Twenty-eighth Amendment of the constitution was approved in the second Lisbon referendum, held in October 2009.
[edit]2009 Budget
Cowen delivered the Irish government budget for 2009 on 14 October 2008, brought forward from its usual December date due to the global financial crisis. The budget, labelled “the toughest in many years”,[44] included a number of controversial measures, such as a proposed income levy and the withdrawal of previously promised HPV vaccines for schoolgirls. Other results of the budget included a new income levy being imposed on all workers above a specified threshold and the closure of a number of military barracks near the border with Northern Ireland.
Public outcry arose over the proposed withdrawal of medical cards and the reinstatement of university fees. A series of demonstrations ensued amongst teachers and farmers, whilst on 22 October 2008, at least 25,000 pensioners and students descended in solidarity on government buildings at Leinster House, Kildare Street, Dublin. Some of the pensioners were even seen to cheer on the students as the protests passed each other on the streets of Dublin.[45] Changes to education led to a ministerial meeting with three Church of Ireland bishops over what was viewed as a disproportionate level of cuts to be suffered by Protestant Secondary schools.[46] Separately representatives of the Roman Catholic Church were assured by O’Keeffe that it would continue to be able to provide religious instruction to pupils in primary schools not under the patronage of the Church.[47]
Rebellion within the ranks of the government led to a number of defections of disenchanted coalition members. County Wicklow TD Joe Behan resigned from the Fianna Fáil party in protests at the proposed medical card changes. He, alongside two other government deputies, later voted against his former colleagues in two crucial Dáil votes on medical cards and cancer vaccines. These defections reduced the Irish government’s majority of twelve by one quarter. Finian McGrath, an Independent TD, who agreed to support the government after the 2007 election, also withdrew his support from the government. A senior political source said: “The Budget was an accident waiting to happen.”[48]
Under the European Union stability and growth pact, EU states are required to keep their budget deficit-to-GDP ratio below a three percent limit and maintain a debt-to-GDP ratio below 60 percent. On 31 October 2008, the European Commission opened an excessive deficit procedure against the Government for allowing its budget deficit to exceed the required EU deficit-to-GDP ratio of 3 percent. The Irish deficit was expected to be 5.5 percent in 2008, and 6.5 percent in 2009.[49] This response forced reversals of proposed changes in several areas, contributing to perceived weakness in his Government.[50]
[edit]2008 Pork crisis
On 6 December 2008, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland ordered the recall, withdrawal and destruction of all Irish pork products dating back to 1 September, due to the discovery of toxic levels of dioxin in a small percentage of the pig stock. Cowen additionally approved a five-day withdrawal of Irish pork from the market, Within days thousands of jobs were either lost or under threat at pig processing plants across the country, as processors refused to resume slaughter of pigs until they received financial compensation; the crisis ultimately cost taxpayers approximately €180 million.[51] Cowen’s government received heavy criticism for overreaction in its handling of the incident,[52] with Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny calling the government’s response as “an unmitigated disaster”.[53]
[edit]Anglo Irish Bank
The heavy exposure of Anglo Irish Bank to property lending, with most of its loan book being to builders and property developers, meant that it was badly affected by the downturn in the Irish property market in 2008.[54] On 15 January 2009, after attempting to salvage the Bank by injecting €1.5bn into its coffers, the Government announced that it would take steps that would enable the Bank to be taken into State ownership. The Anglo Irish Bank Corporation Act, 2009 provided for the transfer of all the shares of the Bank to the Minister for Finance and was enacted under Irish law on 21 January 2009. On the same date, the Bank was re-registered as a private limited company.[55] Observers at the time commented that the government had been slow to respond to the collapse of the Bank, with the Sunday Times stating that “Nationalisation was good enough for other European governments but Brian Cowen’s administration avoided the inevitable until its back was to the wall. Too frequently, it is seen to be reacting to events, not controlling them.”[7]
[edit]2009 Emergency budget
In a second emergency budget, delivered in April 2009, a fiscal deficit of 10.75 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) was addressed.[56] The budget’s initiatives included a doubling of the previous year’s income levy to 2%, 4% and 6%; increases on the excise duties on a regular packet of cigarettes (25 cents) and a litre of diesel (5 cents); a new “asset management agency” established to remove bad loans from Irish banks; the gradual elimination of early childcare supplement by 2010, to be replaced by a subsidy towards pre-school for 3 and 4 year olds; and no further increases in social welfare for at least two years.[57] Cowen defended the emergency measures as necessary.[58]
[edit]First no confidence vote
National and international press reactions to the budget were largely favorable, with the economics editor of the BBC reported that there were lessons for the United Kingdom to learn from this emergency procedure and the European Commission hailing the budget as a form of “decisive action”.[59] However, it did little to revive the political fortunes of Cowen’s government. After Fianna Fáil performed badly in the elections of 5 June 2009, losing half its European Parliament seats, Fine Gael tabled a motion of no confidence against Cowen on 9 June. He survived the vote by a thin margin of 85-79.[60] Support for the government continued to fall: on 3 September 2009, an Irish Times /TNS mrbi poll, opinion poll[61][62][63] reported that Cowen’s satisfaction rating had dropped six points to 15 percent, with 77 percent of voters saying they were dissatisfied with the way he was doing his job.
[edit]2010 Budget and NAMA controversy
Cowen’s government’s third budget within 14 months, delivered on 9 December 2009, saw the government facing the reality of the country nearly becoming insolvent.[64] [65] The 2010 Budget was described by commentators in Ireland and around the world in unusually harsh terms as €4 billion was removed from the country’s national deficit; The Irish Times labeled it “the most austere Budget in the history of the State”.[66] It was characterised by pay cuts for public sector workers and cuts in social welfare. According to the BBC, social welfare cuts had not been implemented by the country since 1924.[67] The cuts prompted at least one angry outburst in Dáil Éireann.
In February 2010, Cowen defended his claim that the National Asset Management Agency (NAMA) would increase the supply of credit into the economy despite the International Monetary Fund (IMF) saying it would not lead to any significant increase. “People should contemplate what level of credit accessibility we’d have in this economy without NAMA,” he said. “It’s not just sufficient in itself obviously for credit flow, it’s certainly an important and necessary part of restructuring our banking system, of that there’s no doubt, in terms of improving as a location for funding of banking operations,” said Mr. Cowen. He previously said that the Government’s objective in restructuring the banks through NAMA was to “generate more access to credit for Irish business at this critical time”. In September 2009, the Minister for Finance, Brian Lenihan, expressed a similar view, saying it would lead to more lending for business and households. Cowen was responding to reports published on 8 February that the IMF had told Brian Lenihan in April 2009 that the NAMA would not lead to a significant increase in lending by the banks.[68]
The comments, which appear in internal Department of Finance documents released under the Freedom of Information Act, were made by senior IMF official, Steven Seelig, who was to join the board of NAMA in May 2010. Minutes of a private meeting at the department between Mr. Lenihan and IMF officials on 29 April 2009 state that the “IMF (Mr. Seelig) do not believe that Nama will result in significant increase in bank lending in Ireland”. The Government has maintained that NAMA’s purchase of bad loans from the banks with State bonds would increase the flow of credit in the economy since the plan was unveiled April 2009. Speaking at the publication of the NAMA legislation in September 2009, Mr. Lenihan said it would “strengthen and improve” the funding positions of the banks “so that they can lend to viable businesses and households”. The IMF estimated in their published report that domestic banks would face losses of up to €35 billion, though the department pointed out this would be partly funded from operating profits and provisions already taken against some loan losses.[68]
[edit]Second no confidence vote
Speaking on RTÉ on 15 May 2010, Cowen said that, in hindsight, he should have introduced a property tax to cool the property boom. Responding to the Taoiseach’s defence of his actions as minister for finance, Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny accused him of “washing his hands” of his role in Ireland’s economic crisis. Speaking during a front bench meeting in Cork Mr. Kenny also claimed Fianna Fáil was spreading fear by considering cuts to the old age pension. “Sorry is a word that Fianna Fáil do not recognise, they don’t understand,” Mr. Kenny told party colleagues. Mr. Kenny said Taoiseach Cowen, in defending his own personal handling of events, was refusing to acknowledge that he drove the economy “up on the rocks” for four years when he was minister for finance. “He expects everybody else to accept responsibility for it but not him. It’s another example of hands being washed by those in charge, a refusal to accept responsibility for their part in destroying the Irish economy and heaping economic woes . . . upon so many people.” The Fine Gael leader said the best thing the Taoiseach could do was to hold the three pending by-elections, or a general election, so the people could have their say.[69]
On 15 June 2010, Cowen faced his second no-confidence motion in just over a year, tabled by Fine Gael after the publication of two reports that criticised government policies in the run-up to Ireland’s banking crisis. He again survived the motion, 82-77.[70]
[edit]EU and IMF Rescue
On the evening of 21 November 2010, Cowen confirmed that Ireland had formally requested financial support from the European Union’s European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), after long resisting pressure from other eurozone nations, particularly France and Germany.[71][72] On 28 November, the European Union agreed to a €85 billion rescue deal of which €22.5 billion from the European Financial Stability Mechanism (EFSM), €22.5 billion from the IMF, €22.5 billion from the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) and bilateral loans from the United Kingdom, Denmark and Sweden. The remaining €17.5 billion will come from a state contribution from the National Pension Reserve Fund (NPRF) and other domestic cash resources. [73]
The bailout was widely seen in Ireland as a national humiliation, a betrayal of the long-fought struggle for Irish independence whose legacy forms a major part of the Irish identity. The Irish Times asked
“ whether this is what the men of 1916 died for: a bailout from the German chancellor with a few shillings of sympathy from the British chancellor on the side. There is the shame of it all. Having obtained our political independence from Britain to be the masters of our own affairs, we have now surrendered our sovereignty to the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund.[74] ”
On 24 November 2010 Cowen unveiled a four-year plan to stabilise the economy by 2014.[75] The plan was met with great protest as it included deeply unpopular elements, including drastic cuts in social welfare, the lowering of the minimum wage, and an increase in the value added tax while maintaining the state’s low corporate tax rate.[76] In recognition of the political disaster this would inflict on his government, Cowen indicated that the election would take place in early 2011 after the 2011 budgetary process has been completed, though at the time he would not set a specific date.[77]
[edit]Fall from power

And Enda Kenny;

What good has any of these people in power done?

Nothing they have ruined this country and are still living on the taxpayer,s money and making the citizens of Ireland pay for their mistakes and their games of high stake poker with our money , and making us suffer the consequences of their high and mighty lifestyles!

It’s time for a more open, people based government, there should be a clearout of the who,e government. then there would be one we,ll say manager of each town, and one of each county, and at the end of every 6-12 months they would meet and discuss what is to be done that way everyone would have an input.

http://www.change.org/petitions/supporting-the-irish-nation-step-down-from-government

Catherine
It was a condition of the Bail out loans we signed up for. Without them we would have had to balance our books and a crude estimate of the cost associated with same would have been;
All wages down thirty percent.
All Health spend down thirty per cent.
All Social Welfare,spend including pensions down thirty percent.
All Government spend on Capital projects stopped.
Public Service numbers reduced by thirty percent with no redundancy payments.
All child benefits ceased
Etc etc etc…………..would have been socially interesting Catherine!

I was in no way in need of a “sh*t list” from the past 20 years or so.

I also am in total agreement on the need for transparency, honesty and integrity. I can’t see a system which is credibly better than democracy (which I of course can see a lot of failings in also).

However, I am not in any way criticising what YOU would like to see or your opinion. I am saying that if you have a cause and you put a link to that cause in every single post you make, then surely you should have a better picture of what comes next in the event of that petition being successful. So far, you’ve given us your opinion. Whoever started the petition I hope has a credible alternative.

I would consider signing any such petition if it presented an alternative that was credible. So far, none have been. There are constant calls in the comments section of this and other sites for “sack them all” and other such comments. Never has anyone given a credible alternative. It’s a knee jerk reaction to sign this petition without understanding what the intentions and motives are of those who began it.

Could you give any sources for that 18 billion of bank debt that we are to pay? , I hadn’t heard it was as high as that per year.

Ah sure is the end of the world not due later this year.

How the hell are we gonna ever close this deficit? 3 billion a year for the next 4 years. Not a chance. I can’t see this government lasting beyond this years budget, so unless we suddenly have an economy growing by 4 or 5% a year for the indefinite future, we are well and truly bolloxed.

Wrong, Stephen. The payments to bondholders are not taken into account when calculating the deficit.

If we did not pay 1 billion to bonderholders we would have that 1 billion available to fund the running of the country, leaving 1 less billion that we have to find. 11 billion – 1 billion = 10 billion. does that compute?

If we did not need to pay the 1 billion to the bondholders this week we would never have needed to borrow the 1 billion from the IMF last week. Therefore still leaving 11 billion deficit. .Does that compute !!!!!

Are you kidding?! “cloud cuckoo land”? Try a 30% cut in take home salary, you ignorant man! I work with nurses who don’t have money at the end of the week to put petrol in their cars. And, no, not 2012 cars…

what we need is a witch hunt hang all front line civil servants pension off the top earners then take on the best and the brightest of our young people and show them how shit they are by paying them 20%less than their peers.Still no cap on advisors for ministers or top bankers still unvouched expences still over represented in Dail and senad.vote doesn’t equall a say in this country look at labours mandate vs program for government who voted for that shit.Answer Direct democracy if we had that which we did it would make the government more transparant.so no selling corrib oil fields for buttons no paying bondholders no bailing out rogue toxic banks in the middle of the night because the government would have to ask the people for their permission