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Dublin: 3 °C Thursday 23 May, 2013

Column: Nick Leeson – My heart says ‘No’, but my head says ‘Yes’

TheJournal.ie columnist nails his colours to the mast and says that a ‘Yes’ vote is the only message to send out if we want access to funds at the keenest rates possible.

Nick Leeson

WHILE SIT HAS been suggested that Ireland should hold off on a vote on the fiscal treaty until European leaders flesh out new policies to promote economic growth, Enda Kenny remains adamant that the vote will go ahead on 31 May.

Buoyed by his recent election success French President-elect Francois Hollande has pledged to add pro-growth initiatives to the fiscal treaty, and he has support for that goal in the German parliament. On Wednesday of last week the German government indicated that it would seek to delay parliament’s vote on the treaty in the wake of Hollande’s victory.

In light of these developments, many would say that it would be right for Ireland to delay its vote to attempt ratification of the treaty. I really think that it doesn’t matter. I believe that any amendments will be passed on and France and Germany sit at a completely different negotiating table than Ireland. They remain the real policy drivers and policy makers whilst Ireland and the other delinquent nations remain at the ‘bold-boy’ table.

Admittedly Ireland is now the far better behaved nation of Greece, Portugal, Italy and Spain but the rehabilitation is not yet complete. Keeping their head down may be the best option.

Delaying the vote would serve no real purpose. What would worry me much more is that the wrong result is the one communicated back to Brussels. Everyone needs to be very sure about how they cast their vote, not 50:50 or 60:40 in their belief but at least 95 per cent sure that they are making the right decision. Any other ratio suggests that you are not convinced. Unfortunately I think most people find themselves in that position.

“This is one vote where idealistic views on who the world should work have no place”

The only vote is Yes. This is one vote where political sensitivities need to be put to one side, idealistic views on how the world should look also have no place and what is needed is a sensible appraisal of the reality that the country faces. If people can do that then the only option is a Yes  vote. Forget about the stupid posters adorning the lampposts as you go around the country. Forget your party’s choice of slogan – most of them are so cheesy that they smell as you pass. Make the right choice for the right reasons.

Were I being idealistic about the vote, I would vote No. I hate being told what to do and when to do it and having more controls heaped upon me. But a realistic look at the situation tells me that the only way to vote is in the positive. Ireland will be a net borrower of money for my lifetime and anyone reading this article. To make that proposition as pain free as possible it will need access to the most primary source of funding that it can find. It will also need access to those funds at the keenest rates possible.

At the moment that comes through the troika. Later on it will come from an orderly return to the money markets, but the markets and it’s participants have a long memory and a lot of what happens now will be exceptionally relevant.

“I do genuinely fear that a No vote will consign Ireland to a secondary tier of funding”

A No vote may or may not see an immediate retraction in the level of funding but I do genuinely fear that it will consign Ireland to a secondary tier of funding, sub-prime if you like. A cursory glance at recent history should convince you that that is not a place where you want to be. Sovereign debt is not what it was, over-exposure to the sovereign debt of a number of European countries led to the collapse of MF Global.

When credit conditions contract as they undoubtedly will at some time in the future, you are in a far better position if you have access to the primary source of funds. Don’t forget the onset of the financial crisis: many companies had borrowed short to lend long. That is perfectly acceptable when you have access to funds in the primary market at a reasonable rate but when that market starts to contract, and starts to become concerned at the risks associated with lending to the less secure organisations or governments, then you are lost and the ultimate result is the type of implosion that we all witnessed in 2008 and of which still suffer the reverberations.

We’ve all seen these ‘payday’ loan adverts on the television. Were the country to deliver a No vote to the fiscal treaty, I immediately think of images of Enda Kenny or the next Taoiseach sitting in front of a group of old ladies explaining to him how easy it is to get a ‘payday’ loan arranged, 2,500 per cent per annum and the only way that we can keep the country going. Let’s not make that image a reality. There will be many occasions to vent your anger at politicians – none in my opinion are doing a particularly good job – but this is not that occasion.

Let’s stick with what we’ve got and keep our heads down. It may not be ideal but there is no point in winning a battle to lose the war. There are other battles that will become even more important to win.

Read previous columns by Nick Leeson>

Terrence McDonough on a No vote: The treaty is risky and dangerously experimental>

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Comments (86 Comments)

  • I’m 60-40 in favour of no right now. It is the argument that we will face stiff loan interest if we’re outside this treaty which has me in any way even considering a yes. Can anyone provide stats for other countries of similar size outside of the EU, that borrows, and what rates they get? The problem is not many of us are economic experts and I want proof that automatically we face high interest loans once we’re outside this treaty.

    Reply
    • If we were to go to the markets today this is the rate we’d get on monies borrowed (the 10 year bond price being the standard bearer) http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/.IRGERSP:IND
      Now consider that this rate is based on the fact that we are in the process of recovering within the stability that low rate loans from the troika provides and that we have access should we need it to emergency funding at relatively low rates, a No vote would invariably see this rate sky rocket. The rate passing 7% was enough to trigger the need for a bail out in the first place.

      Reply
    • Ireland needs to borrow in and around the 5% mark at the moment were a little under 7 … I think that in 2014/2015 if we are tryin to get back to the bond markets buyers will look far more favourably on Ireland if we have a 700 billion back stop for certainty

      I also think it important to say that Ireland will not be prevented from getting a deal on its bank debt by a yes vote … Actually I think it’s more likely that instead of having to get 81 billion again like the last bailout if it was only 30 for the banks that would be looked at … Also Spain are heading that way looks like efsf will be used on bankia … Very good news for Ireland re Anglo

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    • censored 15/05/12 #

      The high interest rates being charged by the markets are an indication that they don’t believe we can really pay back all this money.

      Guess what? Borrowing more is not a solution.

      Reply
  • Paul Oh 14/05/12 #

    None of this is truly about Ireland. At the end of the day it is about maintaining a corrupt bankocracy. Why anyone would vote in favour of this is beyond me.

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  • Let’s stick with what we’ve got and keep our heads down…..and let the rest of europe fight our battles…fighting irish ..right ,we are unique in been giving a chance to stand up to this austerity treaty and thats what you advise us:(: no no no

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  • Well put Nick its trying to be realistic while wishing we could shove two fingers up at pur own political cesspit we live with here every day but we have no real choice do we but vote yes ? all the hurlers on the ditch can bitch and moan but in real terms we are a poor economy at the edge of Europe once again

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  • Absolutely right Nick – the ‘payday loans’ idea is a good analogy.
    Unfortunately far too many people seem to want to use this vote to express their anger at polititians, bankers and ‘the system’ in general without taking a long hard look at the harsh realities facing Ireland and the practicalities of what a vote either way could mean.

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  • “While sit has been suggested” good journalism from the off ha.

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  • “what is needed is a sensible appraisal of the reality that the country faces.” Completly agree, live in reality, not a dream world, vote yes :)

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  • Let’s all vote yes so the politicians can keep their high wages and stamp the rest of us further into the ground.

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  • the treaty offers access to funding so long as you make it national law not to borrow.

    that is like legalizing prostitution so long as everyone agrees to give up sex.

    I’ll be voting no and this is the video that sealed it for me

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPcWHBPYOSU&sns=fb

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  • vote what you like nothing will change the EU and Euro currency won’t last either way

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  • What a complete load of shite – What has a heart got to do with anything in the first place (It’s a referendum!!!) and if you had a brain….look around does austerity work?? – Clueless!

    Reply
    • A No vote means way more austerity than a Yes vote.

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    • A No vote means more austerity – Explain?? We’re going to have austerity anyway…but the difference is we don’t have political tagets to meet if we don’t ratify this ‘austerity’ treaty…In fairness they put the words stability. growth etc. in the preamble to the treaty before even talking about it. Hollande in France has only started the discourse in the past couple of weeks on growth. The idea behind this treaty is to destroy economies until there is no other way to go but up. People who vote yes are voting for the slaughter – People should read the treaty it’s all there…Structural deficit my arse!! Don’t put this nonsense in our constitution.
      We have to be given money from somewhere – imagine how bad it would look if a monetary union refused to issue funds to a member state??! Don’t be thick…surely you can see through, what is, more lies!!
      If anything a yes vote will mean more austerity – because growth will be 0 and more job losses, we should really start to look after GNP figures – look at the comments up above…I’ve an exam in a couple of hours – read before you vote – because this will be close!! It’s in all our interests that people inform themselves -read the treaty itself and not that propaganda piece by the government.

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    • We will have more austerity because the treaty guarantees us a source of funding if we can’t raise it on the markets at a reasonable rate.

      Not ratifying the treaty makes it way more unlikely that we will be able to raise money on the markets at a reasonable rate because the markets will know we don’t have a backstop.

      That therefore means that we will either be unable to raise any money anywhere, or if we can get some funds out of the EC, it will be at such draconian terms as to make current events look like a picnic. The IMF will not talk to us if we are not in an EC/ECB agreed program.

      The monetary union you speak of is preparing the ground to evict Greece and take their massive default on the chin. That should serve as warning to anyone who thinks that we should dare them to pull the trigger of the gun that is pointed at our heads.

      The treaty is NOT being put in our Constitution.

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    • Donal

      Look around you, to the rest of the Eurozone countries. Austerity is not working – it never could except by one country in isolation amongst others growing strongly to increase the buying of our exports. It can never work in the present circumstances. Haven’t you noticed every single growth ‘forecast’ over the last 4 yrs has been downgraded massively within months of its publication? Our debt sustainability depends on growth.

      People in other countries are waking up to this fact. We need policies for growth, not some fiscal compact that does nothing but attempt to straighjacket the stimulation policies needed, both now & in future downturns or recessions..

      We need to vote no to add our democratic voice to this growing dissent.

      We are being steamrollered & blackmailed to support economics thinking that has already demonstrably failed. The effects of a yes vote will damage Ireland for generations.

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    • Mike, a No vote would not mean an end to austerity for Ireland. It would mean far greater austerity for the reasons I have outlined above.

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  • hang on now, why do we need bigger European countries coming in and dictating to us what we need to do, people don’t seem to to know that in Germany to even get social welfare you need to first go and sell your house and any other possessions of value and then apply after you have nothing left then they help… and after you get back to work you pay them back, i don’t even have a problem with the latter part if we lived in a country with plenty of jobs like Germany but we don’t and believe me they won’t care about 4 million on some island, they gassed more than that along with 25 million Russians…. we are dust on their feet so why allow them to dictate our budgets, can our government not govern their own takings with what is being suggested as our guidelines or are they too incompetent??? we need to seriously look at Iceland and cut the banks, Ireland could have a state bank opened in days through the post office to manage the wages and payments etc of the regular population, and let the banks sort themselves out, stop paying the bond holders which is what we are borrowing for, demand our 200billion worth of fishing rites back that we gave away to Europe and tax the gas and oil the same as every other country!! i don’t mind having nothing if it’s helping us genuinely to get out of this hole but i object to paying unsecured bonds and the government being way over payed and you may be sure of it that Germany won’t come in and tell enda to cut his wages, it’ll be from those who have nothing!

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    • Yes, because WWII is really relevant here

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    • 1) We need bigger countries to tell us what to do because they give us MONEY!
      2) You shouldn’t get social welfare when you have a house worth several hundred thousand.
      3) You don’t pay back social welfare. You’re encouraged to get a job. Then you pay contributions to the same fund that put food on your plate.
      4) No clue what you’re on about with gassing 25 million Russians.
      5) We are not Iceland.
      6) Not much point having a state bank with no money in it.
      7) Can’t really stop paying bondholders and then turn around and ask them for more for essential services.
      8) We should all become fishermen because there won’t be much else to do when we do what you say.

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    • 7) Can’t really stop paying bondholders and then turn around and ask them for more for essential services.

      LOL

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  • Standard of writing is atrocious, who proof reads this???

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  • Another article and person who simply says who cares what’s in this we need the money… Wake up and see the stupidity of this treaty, it locks us into another 20 years of an economic death cycle, every year we will have less and less tax returns due to less and less money within the economy requiring more and more cuts. A leads to B leads to A continue until people reject austerity…

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    • Sorry Frank, but someone needs to take the Internet away from you.

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    • Aurfur 14/05/12 #

      If its spending over and above income then drastic cuts have to be made somewhere. Such a budget is never sustainable as heavy borrowing only puts off the day until no more can be borrowed. Problem is no one is prepared to change their lifestyle. If 5% of people own 30% of wealth then things can’t change much.

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    • Government spending doesn’t affect government income massively in a country like ours due to the large amounts we spend on exports rather we need to look to exports and the private sector to provide growth. The country is under severe austerity at the moment and we still are achieving growth this year even if it is minimal.

      Reply
    • Ian is entirely correct.

      The important point is debt to GDP +ratio+, or more important for Ireland’s domestic economy outside the sparsely employing multinational export enclave, debt to GNP ratio. This is the key aspect when considering debt sustainability. Growth is essential, not an ‘option’. Growth is increased aggregate spending, which includes both government & non-government.

      The austerity policies produce economic contraction, or stagnation at best. GNP is still going down, GDP is stagnant. To avoid the need for further borrowing, we need the levels of growth upon which the plan depends. At every point, growth has come in well under these target figures. Already, the revised forecasts for this year have been halved to around 0.7%. The reality is likely to be even lower. The idea that we will achieve 2.4% required next year is complete fantasy.

      So our GDP & GNP will be lower & we will need to increase our debt in a second ‘bail out’. The debt/GDP ration will grow & will be even more unsustainable.

      If we allow the present policy thinking, exemplified by the fiscal compact, even greater austerity conditions will be applied, and situation will get worse. Assuring the need to borrow even more, until we arrive where Greece is now. And where Spain, Portugal, Italy & others are heading too. Even Germany is stagnating. Even if we take a self-interested, beggat-thy-neighbour view, do we really think our exports can continue to increase whilst those buyer countries are stagnating or contracting?

      Hasn’t any of the ‘yes’ proponents copped on that the growth killing austerity conditions of their 1st ‘bail out’ has led inevitably to Greece’s 2nd bail out & the present situation?

      Greece’s 1st bail out was never about helping them recover. It was ‘can-kicking’ to give the financial elites time to minimise losses to these same elites (bondholders). The policy approach has been precisely the same througout in Ireland. Have people forgotten? The bank guarantee, bondhholders protected at any & all costs to citizens who bear no responsibility for the reckless lending?

      Do we really want to wait until it gets as bad as Greece before demanding a change of course in the Euro system?

      The Euro system has the solution in the currency issuing central bank. It has used its capacity to create money to bail out the banks (who caused the mess). The only reason it is not used to stimulate the growth we need (at zero or insignificant cost) is the ideology of vested interests, not macro economics.

      Do we still believe in the primacy of democracy, the interests of citizens, as espoused in our constitution? If you choose to vote ‘yes’, it seems to me you don’t. Make no mistake, this vote, to enshrine the primacy of bodies like the ESM, beyond any democratic control or legal process, is exactly what this referendum is about.

      For citizens, the Euro system, as presently constituted, is a failure. We should vote no & join with the other rising voices of dissent to demand full reform.

      Reply
  • Mike 14/05/12 #

    Well reasoned and presented argument but I still say vote NO and take a stance for once, we the common plebs shouldn’t have to endure austerity for a generation because of greedy and stupid banks!, take a stand and vote NO!, they don’t like it up ‘em’

    Reply
  • Mike 14/05/12 #

    Well reasoned and presented argument but I still say vote NO and take a stance for once, we the common plebs shouldn’t have to endure austerity for a generation because of greedy and stupid banks!, take a stand and v

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  • Voting no still. So when they cut off funding we will have to fend for ourselves even though we are still members of the club. So if one of the club members says no the rest of the club is going to bully that member and starve it off money. Yeah that’s great I love being bullied into a yes vote. It just shows the desperation these technocrats have to hold on to power and wield it over the rest of us. I like being in the club as long as we are all equal but when some of us are more equal than others it has turned into a dictatorship if you ask me. Vote yes and our club members won’t let us starve of money. Vote no and they will. I don’t think so.

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  • I’m voting No.

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  • Vote No. We need to kick them in the arse to get the country moving. Voting Yes will only buy FG more time in the Dail, cause they’ll keep eating up the money rather than putting plans in place for to save and create jobs. Brian Hayes’s eyebrows look realy funny. You can’t trust a person with a silly head.

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  • Would agree with the author….everything says I shoud vote no…but I’m starting to see that there isn’t an alternative. This is a hateful position that we have been put in by others and one which should never have been placed in…..all to help the few who caused this mayhem. I’ll walk up to the booth still wthout my mind made up I’d say..

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  • Nick, Your heart is more intelligent than your head. It’s listening to our heads too much got us into this mess. John

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  • I’m voting NO and everyone I talk to, I urge to vote NO.

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  • You should always listen to your heart!! The rest is just mental Noise” Why the big rush on this vote? put that true your head, and see what your Heart comes up with!!

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  • Im voting NO because if we stop bailing out the banks and bond holders we dont need any loans.

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    • It must be great to live in dreamland.
      We have a deficit of €15b on day to day spending. That’s social welfare and public sector wages.
      In dreamland, this deficit doesn’t exist. It’s all lovely fluffy clouds….

      Reply
    • Our borrowing requirement in the coming years is to fund health, education and other services.

      Good to see you admit we’ll be left high and dry with a NO vote but it’ll be the vulnerable who’ll suffer, not the bankers!

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    • considering we are running a huge deficit due to overspending that is just not true. We have to borrow to pay social wefare and the public service to the tune of 18 billion a year just to keep the country running. Idiot

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    • Based on that statement your voting idealistic rather than practically. It would be great to vote no but based on the hole we are in financially as a country we must vote yes.

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    • Frank, that’s wrong. There’s an €18 billion hole just to run the country, leaving aside the bank debt. Where do you think the govt are going to find this money if we reject the Treaty? And no Sinn Feinn economics, please. Serious answers only.

      Reply
    • Germany’s economic problems have so far been understated and overshadowed by the peripheries.
      The Euro’s economic corrosive effects are just beginning to bite in Germany.
      The difficulties of Germany’s banks have been temporarily mitigated by the two Ltro’s and attempts at firewalling the crisis.
      Germany’s most depilating problem is largely not discussed outside Germany. It’s impending pensions crisis.
      Despite the common perception, Germany is not and has not been a paragon of fiscal discipline itself.
      Germany’s ability to underwrite the ESM are not realistic and for this reason claims that the ESM will provide ongoing funding for Ireland is illusory.
      “There are matches everywhere ready to strike up this tinder box in Germany right now, high oil prices being just one.
      Ironically, Germany’s dilemma is the same one that faced nations such as Greece, Spain and Ireland earlier this decade: the inability to influence its own monetary policy will stock inflation, which in the case of the now debt-laden peripheral nations took the form of asset bubbles.
      This is a mirror image of what happened in the years following the integration of the euro, when Germany–much like the peripheral nations now–fell into declining growth. Its government deficit grew above 3% of GDP for four years through to 2005, which forced austerity and stifled growth. This led the ECB to loosen monetary conditions in aid of Germany. But this was too lax for the rest of the euro zone. As excess liquidity sought out yield elsewhere, peripheral economies overheated and housing bubbles overwhelmed Spain, Ireland and other nations.”
      Dowjones: When the Deutsche Bundesbank says stop
      Ireland needs to find solutions to it’s economic problems and depending too much on the EU or Germany for this would be a mistake.
      This is why I’m voting No!

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    • Germany’s economic problems have so far been understated and overshadowed by the periphery.
      -Euro’s corrosive effect beginning to impact Germany
      -German bank loses will eventually have to be realised
      -Germany’s impending pensions crisis will be a gamestopper
      -Germany, itself, will have to impose austerity to comply with the fiscal compact
      -Believing the ESM will provide ongoing funding for “delinquint nations” is illusory for 2 main reasons:
      First, Germany can not realistically underwrite this.
      Second, claims for funding will far outweigh available sources of funding
      -Ireland needs to find a solution to it’s problems.

      “There are matches everywhere ready to strike up this tinder box in Germany right now, high oil prices being just one.
      Ironically, Germany’s dilemma is the same one that faced nations such as Greece, Spain and Ireland earlier this decade: the inability to influence its own monetary policy will stock inflation, which in the case of the now debt-laden peripheral nations took the form of asset bubbles.
      This is a mirror image of what happened in the years following the integration of the euro, when Germany–much like the peripheral nations now–fell into declining growth. Its government deficit grew above 3% of GDP for four years through to 2005, which forced austerity and stifled growth. This led the ECB to loosen monetary conditions in aid of Germany. But this was too lax for the rest of the euro zone. As excess liquidity sought out yield elsewhere, peripheral economies overheated and housing bubbles overwhelmed Spain, Ireland and other nations.”
      Dowjones

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    • censored 14/05/12 #

      39 billion should be enough to run this country.

      If it isn’t enough then we are skrewed anyway, bailout or no bailout.

      Reply
  • It Seems Like Dave Burson won the fight on who the idiot was. Congratulations to Dave Burson, Frank Faldo is the idiot on points:)

    i’m still voting No though and Brian Hayes has Silly owl like eyebrows and a silly head…..sorry I had to get that in there.

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  • Stop paying pensions to people still working 90percent of our tax take goes paying bankers and politicians three or four pension . Let them wait till there person age like the rest of us.

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  • What a great set of economists, the only way Ireland can survive is by exterior funding… utter hogwash. You are not doing your homework at all and you are swallowing or peddaling the European way … the way where governments are replaced by non elected representatives… You lot are either ignorant of whats going on, in denial or in cahoots…

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  • All you can do is try and read what’s it all about ,look at the good points and bad then make up you own mind .

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  • Why don’t we ask every other high profile criminal about their views ?

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  • Barings in mind, we’re screwed.

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  • If I were running the country, I’d only guarantee current and deposit accounts in banks, let the bondholders fall, undo austerity measures, save money by cutting back on welfare payments, and stimulate the economy through worthwhile spending.

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  • censored 14/05/12 #

    So Ireland gets to sit at the bold boys table, while the Bigger Powers decide our fate. Our only hope is to keep our heads down and be unnoticed. Sheeesh! This is exactly the supine attitude that has brought this county to its knees.

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  • This vote is a waste of Tax payers money. The Germans should pay the €30 million it will cost.

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  • You mean “my head says yes but my inner coward says no”…

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  • censored 14/05/12 #

    I think this is Nick’s Eurovision song contest entry

    Reply

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