Wednesday 16 May, 2012
THE ANTI-CAPITALIST ‘Occupy’ protests show no sign of abating in cities around the world. In Oakland, California, the protest has shut down one of America’s busiest ports. Occupy Dame Street protestors are still camped out in front of the Central Bank in Dublin and held a protest outside the Department of Finance on Tuesday.
What do you think of the protests? Are they a good thing in your opinion?
Poll Results:
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99% of the news I get comes from one website. #Occupyjournal.ie
03/11/11 #
Woo hoo! We’re camped outside your door, by the way ;)
Unfortunately for most, we have jobs and family as greater commitments than camping outside the Central Bank. Fair dues to those who have committed their time though.
Of course working people cant camp but thats not the overall point. In Oakland workers are shutting down ports (shipping is one of the most important links of global capital) and also occupying forclosed homes and families are moving back into their repossed home and occupiers are protecting them from the police.
http://www.carpevegan.com/?p=3526
worth looking at.
FYI. There’s a new #Occupy movement. It’s called #occupy German banks bum.
The eu was originally formed to prevent Germany getting up their own bottoms again but instead france seems to be #occupy Germany’s bum.
Who do sarkozy and merkel think they are summoning papandreou over to explain his decision to democratically ask his people whether or not to opt for the bailout. Then they go and tell him that the referendum will be about whether or not they want to stay in the euro.
Our european public representatives are representing the Markets not us and our fellow Europeans.
This is getting serious now and it’s time to stop this fear-mongering.
A bit of solidarity would be nicer than “kick them out”. Who will do the kicking? What will you do if the kickers get a taste for kicking and decide to kick you?
A bit of solidarity would be nice!
Hardly surprising that France & Germany are up in arms given how much their banks have invested in Greece’s future. Naive not to question Papandreou’s motives. Hard to stomach watching pension values plummet – we all need a pension. Nice to think that the people of the Greek Republic will be exercising their democratic right to decide their future. Whatever question is put in the referendum, the EU/Eurozone wont allow Greece to pull down the currency. The Drachma will suffer serial devaluation. Greece can’t win really…
Very surprising how short Germanys memory is tho. Didn’t they get the debt forgiveness of the last century?
Wake up!
Hi Réada, Germany made the last of their World War One reparations around this time last year:
The right to protest freely about anything is a fundamental part of the doctrine of democratic freedom. However, we need to look at the situation where those exercising that right, interfere with the freedom of other individuals to carry on with their lives without obstruction. Both are hugely important, we need to try very hard to find the compromise.
Precisely. Passive-aggressive protesting was not what Gandhi advocated.
But surely you can see that some the issues that these people are protesting about are interfering with the freedom of everyone to carry on their lives on a daily basis i.e. taking money from tax payers pockets and giving it to the banks , so should we not also deal with that too as the bigger issue first?
James,
Difficult I agree, but we must still ensure that those who do not feel as aggrieved as the protesters can carry on their lives without obstruction. That is my point. I quite agree that the activities of the governments and financial institutions have been deplorable. I am suffering along with everybody else. It is a quandary, one to which I can see no immediate solution. Your point though is as valid as my own. Good Luck. Chrissy
Bit of a slant with you’re Poll there I think. We Are the 99% and we are always speaking.Our voices are going around the World. It is being heard by the Politicians and Markets that is the problem!
Exactly how is the poll slanted? I’m actually interested in how you perceive this. And do you not think that to speak for the 6930000000 people in the world who make up the actual 99% of the world’s population is a bit of a heavy claim? Nice if it’s true but claims do require more substantiation than just assertion.
David it is a global movement from Cairo to Cape Town to Chicago.
http://www.occupymap.com/
Thanks for the map Chris. But I just wonder if the movement, insofar as it actually is a movement, can be said to literally represent the aspirations of 99% of the populace? It’s a heavy claim and one that is difficult to actually back up. Would it not be better to let this phrase disappear and try and gain a broad consensus on an actual platform? To use phrases like this invite pedantic arguments when there are real issues to be dealt with.
Hmmm.
The poll seems to suggest that you aren’t the 99%, but rather the 58%.
Yeah, these people are camping out in the cold while the politicians and bankers sleep in their cosy beds with expensive bed sheets. Do you really think the people in power lose any sleep because these protestors choose to remain in the streets. They don’t care and it’s not making a difference.
I suppose the Greeks and Egyptians would disagree with you Kelly. Oaklanders made their mayor back down after she ordered the police to come down hard on them last week and yesterday tens of thousands more hit the streets whilst the dock workers shut down a major port in the US.
Those decadent politicians with their beds… How dare they.
They look good on the news but do they really make a difference? Personally if I was a politician I wouldn’t give a damn about a bunch of mainly professional protesters going from one protest to the other. A cynical view I know but a realistic one I believe. Don’t get me wrong I would hope that they do achieve something positive and I will be the first to acknowledge them if they do, it’s just that the people at the top just don’t take any notice of the people at the bottom.
Objection: the poll options are biased by that extra bit that you tagged onto the ‘yes’ answer. It is almost as if the other three options were included as an afterthought. Either do something similar for the other options or don’t do it at all.
03/11/11 #
Noted and tweaked. Thanks for the feedback Ricky.
why is there an option for “i dont care”? if you dont care dont vote
Oh but Waffler, surely In this little democracy of ours it’s ok not to care, and to be free to say so…
Very confused message which I think alienates the majority of ’99%’. This confused messaging was reinforced by the ODS ‘spokerperson’ on the Late Late Show last week, who didn”t really have anything to say apart from “We are staying as long as it takes”. The movement hasn’t caught the imagination of the general population, which I think is saying a lot, when you take into account the number of people who remain angry with the global banking system. To change the system, you have to work from within it, these protesters would have better results long term by forming a political party, or joining with a party that fits in with the ideals of the movement. Fair play to them though, but as it stands, unless they change, this episode will end up as part of athe Reeling In the Years 2011 montage, with Jedward’s ‘Lipstick’ as the soundtrack.
Gav I guess thats why Greeks have a referendum against the bailout and the PASOK government is on the verge of collapse. The mayor of Oakland used to be a community organizer now she’s order cops to shoot peacefully protestors with tear gas and rubber bullets, one of which critically injured an Iraqi veteran. “You dont change the system the system changes you”.
Nov 26th Enough Campaign prebudget protest
The peeps who appeared on Late Late were given 30 seconds. How can anyone clarify anything in that time? Our public service broadcaster is a total joke generally IMO.
Welcome to the new world order,we will just have to get used to it .Like most small european countries Ireland had the chance to opt out of europe but choose to listen to the politicans with their cry of were doomed if we dont join the euro zone. Well now the dust has settled we realise what we gave up number one our independance as a sovereign state to make our own decisions and number two our governments control over banking institutions,the euro banks being our new masters now.I fear it is too late to cry wolf now.
The effectiveness of the Occupy movement can be determined by whether you see it as an end in itself or as a beginning of something else. What they are doing now is harnessing a gut reaction against what they see as rampant elitist capitalism. This is the start and it could go either way. Either it dies out as a social glitch or gets more focused and organised and more powerful.
I’m so impressed with http://www.journal.ie! Just 60 minutes ago I suggested a poll regarding the occupy protests and 10 minutes later we have one!! As a psychology major, the only thing I would question is the wording of the poll – ‘are the occupy protest a good thing’ a better question I feel would have been ‘your views on the occupy protests’ you’re question was a leading question I feel. Love this link – an excellent interview challenging a young man to justify his actions in joining the occupy protest http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrPGoPFRUdc&feature=player_embedded#!
What do we want? Not really sure. Bankers bad mkay.
When do we want it? Sometime.
What do we want? People in positions of resposibility to take responsibility!
Not really catchy enough but I’m sure somebody could make it catchy.
Not doing any harm. Most camps seem to be peaceful. Will be interesting to see how the movement evolves. Is it having an impact on the “powers” in the various countries no. That may change. Who would have thought that the Arab Spring would bring so much change when it first started. A lot will depend on how the authorities handly these camps.
Maybe the people camping in Dame Street could involve themselves in educating the public about what exactly they are about. I’m sure most of them have a mobile phone and can access Twitter/Facebook. We all know the state the country is in but there seems to be a deficit of understanding about so much regarding the bailouts EU/IMF and political activity generally. If we take yesterday’s pay out by the Government; a huge Facebook/twitter onslaught from the public might have had more impact than a small camp in Dame Street. Also quite a few people didn’t have a clue what finding the error in the Government accounts meant. These campers could show their leadership skills by bringing their peers with them and they would be doing a great service to this country. As suggested above, setting up a political party could be done also from here and having at least one person ready to run in every constituency would have much more effect on the politicians because it would threaten them personally.
Totally useless. They are just campers without a job. Leisure activists. Doing no harm yes but what’s the point of that. Either do it seriously or go back to activist school.
I was all In favour of this movement but they lost me yesterday when they decided to #Occupy Waterford.
Like who in their right mind would want to Occupy Waterford?!
Only kidding, I think it is a nobel act and support them fully.
The Vikings did exactly that some time back and it did the place some service… :)
Have any of these occupiers ever contributed to society?
No idea tbh. But I’d be pretty sure they have not been involved in bringing the world economy to it’s knees unlike those currently sitting at the tables of power.
Why don’t you get off your comfy fence and go down and have a chat with them. I think you’ll be surprised with the campers. Btw turn off your tv and you’ll be more informed
Not sure but every time I walk by it just seems to be (mostly) a bunch of scruffs there. I thought I was on the set of interview with a vampire the other day. If you don’t try to make it to the top, how can you expect to be anywhere but on the bottom?
Diego, in a just society there should be no top or bottom, maybe this is what the protests are about, and by showing solidarity with other protesters around the world, instead of trying to get “to the top” by any means possible
Do you actually think that “just” society will ever be created? I personally don’t. It’s human nature to try and climb above the rest. I honestly don’t think most of the people down at the ODS even know what it’s about.
They are a thing but whether that thing is a good thing, who knows? They won’t make any difference as there is no mood in the political classes for change. There is nothing to change to!
The occupiers are correct to point out that the banks are at the centre of this crisis.
They seem more ambiguous on governments role in the expotential growth of the banking industry.
We have arrived at this crisis not because of capitalism but because of the states complicity in distorting markets in favouring large financial institutions and their own profligacy.
beautifully put.
Under capitalism each capitalist competes with other capitalist to keep up their rate of profit. In search of ever greater profits has led to financialisation. Its as much a part of “real” capitalism. Also the ever decreasing rate of profit since the “big boom” during and after WWII has led to neo-liberalism and the ever downward pressure on workers wages. This isn’t an abberation! This is capitalism! A dead German guy from Trier described it over a hundred years ago. He was right!
these people arent the 99 pc in ireland they are very much the one pc. ie the career protestors, the ultra liberals, the ultra lefts. far removed from the majority who elected fg and lab 8 months ago. now how can the occupy people claim to represent all of us. the majority of them act talk dress snd behave in a way that is not the done thing amongst the real 99 pc here, and to most here these people scream hippy and watery wishy washyness which most of us simply abhor. i think the protest lacks credibility. the main reason for this is they dont know what theyre protesting, apart from the state of the world, its like a goldfish protesting its in water. if they want change pick something and change it through politics. the world wont change from its inbalanced wsys on the whim of a group of laughable protestors.
What is this politics you speak of Sean? One that objects to free expression, perhaps?
So peoples clothes determine how valid their arguments are?
We tried getting change through politics, didn’t really work out. And I would imagine that a lot of people who voted labour did not do so because they wanted FG to be in power and vica versa.
I’m the 58% : )
Sean, there’s a fine line between a firm political viewpoint/opinion and being offensive. I believe your choice of wording has resulted in you actually crossing the line, not you actually care about this at all.
Further, on reading your post a second time, it seems that with your near-relentless bashing of people who want their government to start governing and taking responibility instead of captulating (Anglo Irish comes to mind) that you’ll vote for Fianna Failure every time. I’m not saying one party is better than the other, as right now it’s a competition to find the lesser of all evils.
“Talk, dress and act in a way that represents the real 99%”?
The hell is this? It will soon be the way we all “Talk dress and act” if people don’t start telling the “government” to stop sucking money out of our wallets and bank accounts. The fact that they made a big hullabaloo about taking a 5% cut in their own wages; THAT is laughable. Mere fiddling change to a bunch of overpaid, useless bandits.
The Gardaà are supposed to investigate, arrest and put criminals to trial. Well within their power.
Instead what happens is we give them a job in power, and that is unbelievable. Britain has it right. Sack them on the spot.
One thing though. Calling it an “Anti-Capitalist” protest implies they have a different way to run a country. Everyone knows Capitalism went belly up a couple of years ago, and instead of looking for ways to fix the problem before it happens (preventative), they just put their blinkers on and bumbled on like nobody’s business.
If they make enough noise, the Occupy movement has a chance. This country needs a revolution, true, but nobody really knows how to accomlpish that. Look at what happened in some countries that had a forced revolution. Half the country had to evacuate and the other half were either killing or being killed. One death starts a spiral that is impossible to escape unless the one side either capitulates or is wiped out.
Sean I’m an IT worker orginally from Texas. Whilst I protest I also have a job! I stand in solidarity with the Occupy movement. I’m also going to be out on Nov 26th. You can crap on these people all you want but if you are a working person and not living off mommy and daddy or someone else’ labour then you are only acting against your own interest.
no. politics. the main instrument of all and any changes to have happened here since the foundation of the state. political parties being the corner stone of any democracy. the people voted the government in. the majority of us. now whether you agree with the system or not, thats the situation. i believe things need to change. but i believe that the occupy people, the 99 pc to use their own words objecting every day to the actions of a goverment elected by the ssme people they claim to represent is simply counter productive. and so do the people, hence the very cool reception to these protests, particularly in cork. if things are to change it has to be done democratically. the democratic way to secure support here is the receipt of a vote. hence politics, hence political parties. hence my membership of a party, to further the causes i believe in. small scale protests saying they represent everyone is not democratic. its presumptuous. and its rich. but it is not democratic. as for having no say in politics. you have a vote. you can join a party. u can set a party up. if noone joins its simply becsuse people dont agree with you. if you think all the politicians and parties and governments are trying to shut us up you are simply wrong. any party will welcome anyone. well by and large. as the more numbers, and perspectives and ideas they discuss and recieve the greater the change and betterment they can achieve with your vote. the reason the protests are not lafge or overly popular is not the fault of politics or government trying to stop you having your say. its society that hasnt responded as it simply does not support the protest. if siciety and the 99 per cent did. it would be different. i believe the conspiracists word for this is an indictment.
by an annoyed and democracy loving fianna fail member.
understand the point if democracy before you claim to support it.
Your lack of punctuation and spacing makes your post hard to read. And in places, spelling mistakes.
Is this how well educated a Fianna Failure member is educated in English these days?
To be honest, I’m not in the least bit surprised.
“hence the very cool reception to these protests, particularly in cork”
Well, we all know what cork people like, eh? That’s right — cork.
p.s. Fianna Fail — ffs.
Michael, for all you know that guy could be dyslexic.
You’re bloody pathetic, mate.
Sadly, Sean, you have a very weak understanding of what a democracy is and how it works. As you say, there are political parties, but they are not all of what is politics. In a western liberal democracy, there is far more to democracy than you seem to allow. You are perfectly at liberty to be a member of Fianna Fáil. Others are perfectly at liberty to protest in Dame Street. Think you’ll find most political commentators would argue that protest including peaceful civil disobedience is legitimate in a democracy such as ours. You will know from the history of your own party that it actually grew out of a violent struggle against imperialism and, as Dev said, was “semi-constitutional” for a number of years. If you look back at other periods of significant international political upheaval, late 18th century, 1848, 1968/9, you’ll see that it only emerges over time how the objectives emerge from what starts as opposition to and protest against the status quo…
In 1916 our forefathers took over a post office and a biscuit factory an ended up toppling the British Empire so let’s see. ;)
i agree. but it was tge wave of public support after the rising and the execution of its lwaders that allowed that. the protest lacks that public support. which is the democratic vindication it needs to work. would you not agree? or at least that it currently lacks that support?
well i dispute that. it wss all but declared tgat fg and labour were going together.
as for the clothes. they have nothing to do with that persobs argument. on 4 fm the other night therecwas an occupy guy talking about what they were doibg. he saud they wanted a forun for change. now that seems to me that it would be better served in the medium of a political party. which can secure a vote and use it. instead of a blanket protest at the wsy of tge world. i dont mind the way anyone dresses. or acts for that matter. but it does put an awful lot of people off of joining the protest.
Seriously, horse, you should have a stab at proofreading your posts prior to sending. The misspelling etc. makes you appear drunk.
The 1% refers to those who control the world economy and politics through their control of the wealth. We are the 99% who suffer as a result of their greed and selfish policies. Sovereign democratic countries are drastically cutting our living standards, health and education as a result of private companies and speculators driving up interest rates on government borrowings – that system of finance is profoundly anti-democratic and needs to be replaced urgently– but our governments seem unable to do so. My understanding of the ‘Occupy’ movement is that it is a protest against the anti-democratic elite that has brought the western world to the present economic, financial and moral crises.
i think that may be the premise. i just belueve the 99 pc thing is a little insistent on people.
I would agree that ’1% refers to those who control the world economy.’ However, I strongly object to being involuntarily grouped with the 99% and by default linked to the occupy protest. While I acknowledge that they have the right they feel they are representing a lot of people, it is arrogance to suggest they are representing 99% of the world’s population! They are NOT representing me and I’m sure I’m not alone in this view – so less of the 99% spin please!
Marian,
Search for “we are the 99 percent” and then see if you’re not in the 99%, regardless of your opinions about the protests and protesters.
The protests are against the impoverishment of hundreds of millions of people so the billionaires, the 1% who control >50% of global wealth, can continue to get even more obscenely wealthy. Victims of this injustice are the 99%, not just the poorest but the vast majority of us, the taxpayers and others, who pay more for less, who suffer loss of services and supports.
The richest 200 people in the world own the same as the poorest 2.5 billion. They are not claiming 99% of the people support them or are represented by them, they are highlighting the extraordinary wealth gap that’s being widened because the system operated to the benefit of the 1% and to our detriment is broken, and we have to pay to put a plaster on a broken system -a situation that is abhorred pretty much universally.
They are giving out info and engaging with passers by as well as using social media. If you speak to them they have leaflets and printed articles from Bloomberg, financial times etc pointing out that what is being done to fix our economic situation is wrong, hardly hairy hippy publications. Fair play to them. Most people in the country probably broadly agree with their points but are so exhausted by the constant bad news and pay cuts that we’re cowed, plodding along trying to keep heads above water.
@Paul
This late in the thread you probably won’t get many thumbs up. I’ll give you 99%!
If these occupiers are any good why don’t they start their own banks? I’m sure they would attract a great deal of interest (sorry). :)
If 58% are with the occupiers why don’t they cut up their credit cards, which would be a positive act that would damage them and their bonuses instead of clicking on a link? It doesn’t take much of a genius to click on “I hate bankers”.
How many of the 58% have an overdraft, a loan for a car or a mortgage?
Everyone (else) is a hypocrite.
I don’t wish to sound as if I’m down on the protest because I’m sure the people involved believe firmly in their actions and in a free society everybody has the right to make their point as long as they stay in the bounds of the law, which is what they have done. What I doubt is the power in their action.
Realistically the 99% that they claim to represent seem quite disinterested and uninvolved and are getting on with their own lives. I think this label is actually a bit of a millstone around their necks and they might be better off dropping it. Even after a month of protests I have to say that I’m not sure I know what the long-term aim of this movement is. In fact I wonder if the people there actually have a long-term aim, or a united long-term aim.
The problem here is that if you plan to overthrow or dismantle a system you have to propose what you intend to put in its place. At that point consensus falls apart because it is unlikely that everybody will agree on the best solution for that replacement. So if the protest is there just to say there’s a problem then its fairly pointless because I think we all know there’s a problem. Its the best solution we are all trying to find.
soon as the mid term is over and the kids are back in school i’m joining them..
If you do join them, let us know exactly what is hoped to being achieved. I admire people who take a stand against wrong, injustice, inequality etc. and I know that to do so sometimes it is not acknowledged. My problem with this sit in or camp out or whatever in Dame street is, is this, what do they hope to achieve. If no one is put out or disturbed or affected to Amy great extent, then there won’t be any successful outcome. It has to make life difficult, preferably for politicians, bankers or someone against whom this sit in is taking place.
@ James. That’s great. Now maybe they can pay for WWII
It is wrong to call the ‘Occupy’ movement Anti-Capitalist. Capitalism lets bad business fail. The problem is governments under pressure from banks and financial companies are making the public pay for bad business. We are seeing Socialism for the rich, ‘too big to fail’ is NOT capitalism. If banks are allowed fail the good ones will survive and the whole industry will have to shape up or meet the same fate. I dont believe the sky will fall if banks fail.
In response to this question by Hanly Sheelagh above:
‘Maybe the people camping in Dame Street could involve themselves in educating the public about what exactly they are about. I’m sure most of them have a mobile phone and can access Twitter/Facebook. We all know the state the country is in but there seems to be a deficit of understanding about so much regarding the bailouts EU/IMF and political activity generally…’
Fine, I agree with this, and also the rest of what is written in this post about what the campers could do. However, there are basic material and logistical problems to be overcome before any sort of campaign of this nature could ever be conducted.
I think most people on the outside have no idea how difficult it is to maintain an occupation on one of the busiest streets in Dublin with the attendant security threats and disruptions. This requires immense energy, co-ordination and planning. At the moment they need urgent help fortifying the camp. If they don’t get the help, that will be the end of that.
Unless the people at Dame Street and in other occupations enjoy the urgent practical, material support of a wider network, beyond mere good wishes, then whatever aspirations other people on the outside looking in might have for the occupations will amount to nothing. Therefore I would encourage anyone who is sympathetic to what the occupations ought to achieve, and who can spare time or resources, especially in areas such as power generation and construction, to make their way down and lend a hand from 9-3pm tomorrow Saturday. Then there’ll be a party from 3-6.
Sitting here at #OccupyDameStreet… glad to hear people think the Occupy movement is good. Please show your support by coming down to help, or attending the General Assembly’s. The GA’s are on every weekday @ 1pm and on @6pm
Gordon, your right that people support the ideals held by the protesters, my perception is that the majority of people do no suppport the narrow view the activists have taken. The only solution is long term engagement with the political system, otherwise the movement is wasting everyone’s time.
Checkout http://www.occupydamestreet.org
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