They didn’t need to as they were sitting on millions of barrels of oil.

Potentially we could be too, but deffo had one of the richest fishery grounds in the world and for the EEC to take it for a relative pittance was cynical.tough cheese tomorrow:) ynwa

Would be interesting to know who bought them, ECB? Also just how much did Norway off load in their sale.

International Gamblers Anonymous admitted one of their members did ;)

It wouldn’t surprise me if Nama or Ntma bought them on the cheap using the Trokias cash

Hedge funds on wall street probably at a seriously discounted price.

Countries drop Irish debt in uncertainly about possible No vote Shocker. Standard and Poors have already said they will lower our rating if we vote No so this move by Norway is unsurprising.

Opinion polls show the treaty being passed, that is what is spooking the Norwegians
Standard & Poors have been wrong in the past, especially their report on the Irish economy in Nov 2007
http://www.ntma.ie/Publications/2007/RU_Ireland_23_Nov_2007.pdf
The markets dropped us when we nationalised the bank debt.
Gary you can’t or won’t see the truth staring you in the face!

Caroline what the markets have a problem with is uncertainty. I’m not saying Standard and Poors are always right but they are a big international ratings agency who are clearly saying they will downgrade us if we vote No. Whatever about them being always correct their job is to rate risk and we will be riskier if we vote No.
The markets never dropped us, they just set a borrowing rate based on our uncertainty and risk which they are doing again. What’s not clear about that?

Gary, the markets dropped us by setting a punitive rate at which it was uneconomic to borrow. This was done because we nationalised bank debt. Now the markets are dumping our bonds because we are going to vote Yes to perpetual austerity. Balancing the books is desirable but only growth creates cash to pay back debt, why would an investor buy bonds in a country with no growth or no chance of growth because they are being forced to balance their books to the detriment of their economy?

It says in the article that “In a statement, the fund’s chief executive Yngve Slyngstad said predictability was “important for a long-term investor…” You’re honestly going to try and tell me that voting No is more predicable.

And the ‘perpetual austerity’ has been shown to be absolute rubbish, here are three sets of figures..

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/whats-on-table.html
“Consider a country with a debt equal to 100% of GDP. This is 40 percentage points above the threshold. In order to satisfy the rule one-twentieth of this gap must be reduced. One-twentieth of 40 is 2, thus the following year the indicative target for the debt ratio is 98% of GDP.

This can be easily achieved with growth and inflation. With 2% growth and 2% inflation this country could satisfy the conditions of the debt brake with a deficit of close to 1.9% of GDP. In the second year GDP would be around 104 and the nominal debt 101.9 giving a debt ratio of 101.9/104 = .98.”

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78456715&postcount=101
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78467081&postcount=103

From these links you can see that the idea we’re facing ‘perpetual austerity’ is a lie yet what’s make me think you’ll continue to say it.

Imposing budgetary restrictions from a manufacturing powerhouse like Germany will cause GNP to stagnate and thus perpetuate austerity as we cut to pay down debt and strangle growth. I’m not saying a No vote will have a predictable outcome, but it could signal to investors that we will no longer be pouring money down black holes

In examining the extent of economic contraction during this crisis, fall in GDP will be the appropriate yardstick in most countries, as it closely approximates GNP. But it is not appropriate in Ireland as GDP and GNP diverge significantly as a result of Ireland’s large FDI sector.
The other reason why GDP may not be appropriate in measuring the fall in Irish economic output during this crisis is that the domestic Irish economy (exposed as it is to property and banking) has been hit far harder in this crisis than the FDI sector. Thus Irish GDP and GNP have diverged further during the crisis.

“In examining the extent of economic contraction during this crisis, fall in GDP will be the appropriate yardstick in most countries, as it closely approximates GNP. But it is not appropriate in Ireland as GDP and GNP diverge significantly as a result of Ireland’s large FDI sector.
The other reason why GDP may not be appropriate in measuring the fall in Irish economic output during this crisis is that the domestic Irish economy (exposed as it is to property and banking) has been hit far harder in this crisis than the FDI sector. Thus Irish GDP and GNP have diverged further during the crisis.

It is a good zoo all the same

No they definatly didnt

Cal as much as I’d love a writedown as much as the next person the majority of our debt did not go to any bank. So we’d still have the majority of our debt.

And as for your fantasy that we’d be borrowing money at 3% in 3-6 months… Firstly Standard and Poors are saying they are going to lower our ratings if we vote No, so borrowing on the markets would be more expensive than the 6 odd % it already is. Secondly our current rates for borrowings are 2.97% (EFSM), 3.06% (EFSF), IMF 4.79% and UK 4.83%. The *only* reason we get those rates is effectively that the Germans are backing us. The idea that we’d get 3% on our own any time soon is the biggest joke I’ve heard all week.

Gary, again, please stop listening to the Government spin on this one … We put 70 billion euro of tax payer bonds, monies etc into the failed banks … That is money we have no hope of ever repaying… Yes we have a fiscal deficit we need to get under control (which will be a lot easier to manage, if we were growing our economy instead of shrinking it), but the markets are obviously putting a greater level of risk on Ireland because of the 70 billion bank debt… You keep saying that its not bank debt, which is a total lie … Yeah, the current government turned it into sovereign debt, to get the lowering of the rates, but its still banking debt that we cannot sustain. We are sitting at 6% Bond yield at the moment, and if the Norwegian move (which this article backs up all my points on the threads in the last few weeks) is anything to go by, we will continue to sit in the same pile of crap and require bailouts for the next 10-15 years until such times as the baking debt issue is resolved. You keep making your arguments that you as an individual are right, and the majority of people on Journal.ie are wrong, so, let me guess…. The Norwegians are wrong too…. everyone is wrong except for you… Correct ???

Cal I never listen to government spin, the same way I don’t listen to many of the people in here. Quite simply both have their own agendas, so I go and check for myself.
I never said we didn’t have any bank debt, I said the majority of the money we’ve borrowed didn’t go to fund any bank… that is a simple statement of fact.
So I’m really fascinated that you believe that stuffing our creditors on the bank debt but still having the majority of our debt generally will make our borrowing rates go down. No offence but are you taking something?
The funny thing is I’m saying the Norwegians are right but for a different reason to you. They see uncertainty in Ireland and a possibly no vote, so they have jumped ship. But should there be less uncertainty and perhaps a yes vote we will likely see a different scenario.

I just ate a big red candle!!!!!!

@cal would you loan to a country at 3% that had just defaulted on €60-70bn?? If we default it would be years before anyone would loan to us, it is the same idea that if someone takes out a bank loan and then defaults on it the bank wouldn’t lend to them again for years and even then it would be at a much higher rate.

Cal Mooney’s, Sinn Fein’s and the ULA’s Mickey Mouse economics.

yeah paul,
we’ve seen how well the established party’s economics have turned out, eh?

Joseph I’m not sure that after foolishly wounding yourself it would a good idea to go play with a gun.

Gary,

don’t want to know what ur shitein on about,
but
The Bells, the Bells Gary :-)

Wasn’t clear? Okay…

We foolishly wounded ourselves repeatedly voting for Fianna Fail, but playing with the gun that is the ULA/Sinn Fein would be even more dangerous.

Gary, FFG/Labour have only carried on the failed policies of FF … when are you going to realize, this is only getting us into a bigger hole… When you find yourself in such a hole, you must realize that at some point, digging your way out is not an option. You must look around at what is going on around you and try something different.. More of teh same is not going to help us, only hurt us more… I knew you were going to go on about the SF bit again.. Its a pity you are so predictable. Your parties support Tax Harmonization as advocated during the VB debates the other night. Tax Harnonisation will see corporation tax rates being raised in Ireland. I am serious, your parties failed economics have almost totally destroyed the country as it is, continuing those policies, including EU corporate tax harmonisation will be the final nail in the coffin for an economy that is already on life-support. Time to face facts, acknowledge the policies you have been following are not working and start down a different path. Yes, in the short term, it will be harder, but we are a resilient people and if you have the people behind you (and not against you like right now), we can achieve the best outcome for the people.

Firstly Cal I do not support any political party. However the economic policies of the ULA actually frighten me and also to a slightly lesser extent Sinn Fein do the same. The words tax harmonisation might have been used in that debate but as you well know it is not government policy (or in fact supported by almost anyone in this country) to raise our corporate tax rates. To do that would be epically stupid. So let’s not take one quote and make something out of it that is really wasn’t. We are in between a rock and a hard place so there is no easy choice but if we turn to the ULA I for one will move to a country that has some sense.

Joseph: They’ve turned out pretty well, actually. They negotiated a 10 billion euro cut on the interest rate on the bailout last year.

negotiated?? oh really?? Mmmm, BS on that one.

Gary,
are u gettin scared again old son?
Ah, c’mon over here lad,
ill hold ur hand again.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0917/1224304265335.html

Ya see Paul, you like the rest of the FG/LB mob of spin merchants
like to claim credit for that, but it wasn’t Noonans negotiating that achieved that.

It was a little pat on the head from good ole Ollie boy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2011/jul/18/ireland-interest-rate-cut-eu

@paul Carr, the Greeks negotiated the interest cut, we got it by default (no pun intended) despite what the IT and Continuity FF say

Joseph: I claim credit for it??!! How in heaven’s name do I claim credit for it?

Gordan bennett!!
Why do i bother!

Ok Paul,
Ill bring u thru this.
You laid claim to the establishment partys having achieved an interest rate cut.
You were shown that this was an incorrect claim.

What is ur problem? asides from me that is

Joseph: FG and Labour did achieve an interest rate cut. I don’t lay claim to it.

I should say I don’t claim credit for it, which is what you bizarrely claimed originally.

Gary, Gary, Gary!!!! That had nothing to do with the negotiating skills of FFg/Labour… That was as a result of the debt write down in Greece. Our Government havent even asked for a debt write down… The Greeks had 50% debt write down, and a renegotiated interest rate reduction on the remaining debt … That same rate was then applied to Ireland… For you to even suggest that FFg/Labour negotiated this, is one of the biggest lies i have seen on this site. Enda has proudly announced to the Dail on numerous occasions that Ireland has not even suggested a debt write down from the EU… Please point out any faults or inaccuracies in my comment.

Cal: regarding the timeline of the European financial crisis, I might be wrong but here goes.

In May 2010, Greece got its first bailout. The Republic of Ireland then got its bailout in November.

Cal: regarding the timeline of the European financial crisis, I might be wrong but here goes.

In May 2010, Greece got its first bailout. The Republic of Ireland then got its bailout in November. We had to pay considerably higher interest rate for ours so the incoming Fine Gael/Labour government was naturally very unhappy about that. Then in October 2011, the Eurozone leaders offered Greece a second bailout. But the activation of that bailout was conditional on the Greek government forcing a 50% haircut on private investors in Greek Government bonds. Once the Greek government achieved that, the second bailout was activated in March this year.  Simultaneously to the conditional second bailout to Greece being offered in October 2011, the Republic of Ireland got a cut in the interest rate on our own bailout that will amount to up to 10 billion euro in savings.
 

@Paul Carr, The Greeks cooked the books when applying for the first bailout, The Second bailout was forced on the Greeks to save the Euro, the Greeks threatened default because the debt pile was too big, “Eurozone leaders” gave the Greeks permission to negotiate a 50% haircut for debtors along with a cut in the interest rate. Ireland was also given an interest rate cut to head off any default threat from our govt. If our govt. had played hardball we could have reduced our (bank) debt pile, instead we got a pat on the head from Sarkozy

You know I may disagree with people in here (probably quite a bit) but this kind of shíte is the worst. Many of us disagree with you, but not because we’re idiots or sheep or whatever other name makes you feel better about yourself. I’m voting yes to the treaty after *a lot* of research, even emailing experts directly to see what they thought and to ask questions. It’s not a brilliant treaty in the grand scheme of things but I don’t see any real downside for a yes. Even the idea that we can’t meet the targets have been shown to be false, we can easily them with just inflation and nominal growth.

Francis,
I’m with you. And I understand your frustration.
I am voting NO and am advocating a NO vote
within my sphere of friends and family.

As far as I’m concerned this is a battle for the soul of the nation.
I don’t expect the likes of Gary Clowry to understand,
far from it, i expect him to pour scorn on it.

Ah Joseph when you can’t get your way with any logic or facts you go to pulling on the heart strings or trying to makes us feel like we don’t care about our country. I’m a nationalist just not a blind one.

This is a vote that i WILL be making from the heart.

“We are forever desperate to believe that this time the Government is telling us the truth”
Sydney Schanberg

Gosh if only I was listening to the government for my yes vote that quote would be relevant.

And I’m getting my picture taken with me holding my polling marked NO,
so the grand-kids will know when they get old enough that grand-pappy didn’t sell his country out!

Keep the faith my brothers and sisters!

And back to pulling on the heart strings. “Won’t someone please think of the grand kids”. Funnily that’s why I’m voting yes.

This treaty is boring, changes little, adds little new, but if we don’t ratify it then we won’t be eligible for ESM funding. It’s very difficult indeed to make that into something exciting and inspirational while still debunking the lies being propagated by the No campaign. An unexcited yes from me.

And don’t let the barstewards grind ya down :-)

Mr mcgee
that is a brilliant idea . The photograph with NO ,marked X . I too will be voting with my heart for the good of our country. My children and grandchildre will know that I would not sell out their futures.

Indeed that’s a class idea…. Me too camera, X in the NO box and action….

Gary you wouldn’t know logic if it but u in the arse….. Just no talking to some people….

Would that be bit me in the arse?

And the other fall-back position if pulling on the heartstrings and calling up nationalistic fervour doesn’t work… name calling.

Hmmm we could go to Australia or Canada and gain experience or do what the rest of europes unemployed do and sit on the dole for years.