Junior Bondholders? He’s going after kiddie’s savings accounts? Christ that man is evil!

Pre-budget spin? I’ll believe it when I see it.

Excellent point. it’s not as straightforward as a lot of people seem to think…

I’ve had this conversation with people on here before, and more so IRL … the “we are all bondholders now” argument.

Personally, I don’t buy it. Firstly, bond dealing is not a charity, there is plenty of scope in the obscene profits made by the investment vehicles and banks, as well as the obscene remuneration “earned” by senior staff to absorb a haircut without significantly depleting the funds.

It’s a failed investment, the investment house should be accountable – yet again, the markets exist in a world without consequences, while the poor, the vulnerable and the sick pay the price, through no fault of their own.

Also, while pension funds in themselves may seem benign, the money has been put to some pretty dubious uses, particularly in the 80s when the robber barons – James Goldsmith, Tiny Rowland, Michael Milken and the likes – convinced fund managers that their junk bonds were a safe investment, and tapped the funds to asset strip the industrial base, extracting phenomenal profits for themselves, but relatively modest returns for the funds.

It really isn’t that straightforward.

Granted, I wouldn’t like to see bondholders burnt entirely, for this reason, but I think that haircuts should be imposed wherever possible.

Investments are gambles they entail risk. Investment managers assess this risk and invest accordingly, in doing this they do not take account of origin of these funds they might just as easily be the profits of a drug cartel as the capital investment of a registered charity. To my mind it is irrelevant where the money comes from and it is certainly not the responsibility of the citizens of any state to cover off these funds by the recapitalization of banks. The prime responsibility of any democratically elected government is the welfare of the state and it’s citizens and not the welfare of anonymous investors or fund managers of ‘investment vehicles’ who might see a handy profit in cutting corners and making dodgy deals with bond agents.

I liked into this when the big anglo.payout was due last month and pension funds are miniscule in the scheme of bond holders. most of the bondholders are other banks and depressingly the ultra rich. Will hunt out the link.

Liked obviously not liked….typo. This is the article but it deals with the anglo bondholders, you can be sure they are all the same, its only the banks names that are different.

http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2010/10/who-are-the-bond-holders-we-are-bailing-out/

Argh…looked, not flippin liked. Jesus.

Yeah. Saw that list too at the time.

I wonder if we could get a list of their contributions to the Christian Democratic parties of Europe our own FG included?

Thanks for the link.

“This ‘widows and orphans’ reason why the Bond holders must not take any loss, was trotted out to bolster an earlier reason that started to wear thin, which was that if Ireland pissed off the bond holders then they would refuse to ever deal with Ireland ever again and Ireland would never be able to borrow ever again, ever, and everyone would die in penury, friendless and cold. That first reason started to look like it might not hold, when the Germans started to talk rather too openly about how it might be best for all, them especially, if Greece did ‘re-structure’ its debts (default on its bond holders – a teeny bit). When no one said it would be the end for Greece if it defaulted on the mighty bond holders, Ireland’s ‘the sky will fall in’ reason for not asking its bond holders to share the pain started to look like what it was, a politically motivated lie. Thus the grannies and orphans had to be hurriedly wheeled out.”

Innit.

I have to say, though, I’m pretty surprised at the writer’s findings – would’ve thought that pension funds would form a significant part of the asset base of any large investment vehicle. If he/she is correct, then it would imply that the collected pension contributions of tens of millions of people are still dwarfed by the accumulated wealth of “the markets”.

Like you Niall I’m sick of hearing this stuff about some German widow who toddles off to her local bond broker/bank to see how her nestegg is doing to be told that the drink addled Irish pissed it up against the wall!

Even if she does exist to hell with her, tell her to take it up with her fund manager and prosecute him for incompetence if necessary. If investment managers, bond brokers, or whatever capitalized banks in Ireland to act recklessly, which they did, then it’s tough all round and the depositor loses the investors takes a shunt and the world keeps spinning. It’s not our problem. Dozy

Government appointed regulators ride into the sunset with full saddle bags and Paddy picks up the tab. Pity we didn’t spend more of their fools gold when we had the chance.

Sorry Neill. It looks like I called you ‘dozy’ at the end of the second last para. Stiff little fingers!!

And what’s the chances of DIR tax being lowered to encourage saving? None.