Google Endas Kennys ‘European Peoples Party’…Then look who have sat beside him every month for the past 35 years. Sarcozy, Angela Merkel, Barroso, Herman van Rompuy. The EPP now has 16 out of the 27 heads of State or Government in the European Council. WAKE UP IRISH PEOPLE….FFS WAKE UP!!!

Will Sarkozy ever let it go. (corp tax)
It’s probably the only idea he brings to the table, the creepy little scut!

We’ll see how much these guarantee’s re Lisbon treaty are worth. Not a lot as most of us surely now realize. Massive pressure will be brought to bear on this.

yep

I do think that as a nation we are reaching tipping point. We’ve been ” very good” all along and as another commentator mentioned, we’re the only country currently meeting IMF targets. I think that we’ve been so good that they think it’ll just carry on that way. Chances are that the explosion of protest in our society when it comes will burst out and catch them on the hop.

Google Endas Kennys ‘European Peoples Party’…Then look who have sat beside him every month for the past 35 years. Sarcozy, Angela Merkel, Barroso, Herman van Rompuy. The EPP now has 16 out of the 27 heads of State or Government in the European Council. WAKE UP IRISH PEOPLE….FFS WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!

And Enda and co will sell this country for a song

I think that the people of europe should wake up and demand that we the people should have vote in the way europe be run

The Americans wanna take them back.
I say we get the Vatican to help us pay our loans. They have sacks of cash in Swiss bank vaults, alongside dictators’ and mafia money.

Kevin they keep it in their own Vatican bank; no need of Swiss for them

good luck with that :) you clearly have no clue how countries fund them selves

And what about the 130 odd other countries outside of the EU that manage to fund themselves just fine Aaron?

Ya but do the 130 other countries have a corporate tax rate of 9.5%? Countries need money from taxes to fund themselves!!?

They know already who they are f…ing with, that is that the Irish electorate are easily bought!

that should read, if we jack up corporation tax on top of it!

conor… you make a fair point… but how do you square that with the Google example…… i will get exact figure but their corporation tax bill in 2010 was approx 50million euro , as 80% of the real figure was scuttled off through bermuda……. in theory a hike a in CT to say 15% could mean they scuttle off 85% next year????…….. the jobs are the real bonus to our economy….. but thankfully some long term.planning by our universities and IDA … enterprise Ireland etc ensured we had skilled workforce and English speaking….

To be fair google are obviously a pack of cu*ts, that money should be chased, 12.5% CT is low, pay your dues or dont bother coming here!!

Having Google here isn’t just about only what they themselves can contribute. Other companies see them come there and think if it’s good for Google, it could be good for them too which leads to employment.

much as it’d be great if the exchequer got more from them & other multin’ls , what guarantee is that that whatever they contribute to our exchequer will stay in this country and not get handed over to Europe?

And I hope our liar of a Taoiseach is concentrating his time talking to those countries by now. Doubt it though.

Stupid enough to cut disability benefits the same week as giving a 35K raise to his buddy suggests stupid enough to do anything.

Look up R&D Tax Credit scheme, they’re already cutting their tax base down this way.

Dare I ask where the self amending clause is in the treaty?
Maybe you’d care to tell me why they don’t allow binding referenda in Germany?
Or course we can just assume our system is superior to everyone else’s. But have a read of this post and tell me are we really so superior. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75666046&postcount=25

But if we vote the “wrong” way, they’ll just hold another referendum, with a more aggressive marketing strategy. We all remember the infamous “vote for jobs”. Democracy in action!

And when was that referendum?

Tax base but don’t expect the ranting to stop.

they’re still self interested gits Gary. This isn’t any european dream, the core are not dis-interested players pursuing a dream of unity, they are scrambling to protect and shelter themselves from the debt – that it is our debt and not theirs. If we fail or walk away to a peg sterling after ructions, then the debt is theirs.

its systemic debt sky falling – the only consideration in the Western system now is where the building collapse debt debris falls. Right now its the tax payer base at the periphery – the supra-national interbank debt obligations are untouchable. Germans are cutting taxes as every cent from our budget goes to their bank obligations. Some pigs are more equal than others. Germany and France attempted to bluff and repeatedly whip lesser countries for debts outstanding to their core financial institutions – that the only real debt that was real and re-payable was due to them. they’ve yoked half the union to repay the lunacy lending of their banks. the landesbanks are insolvent and yet untouchable.

Merkozy are not acting to save the union, they are flaying the union to save their own domestic financial entities.

THERE IS NO UNION – we are part of no such thing.

the flag is a lie.

In fairness, there’s nothing to suggest they’d to that. They acknowledged its importance

There’s loads to suggest they’d do that. A few months in office and they’ve already shown themselves for the liars and hypocrites they are.

No there’s nothing to suggest what you’re talking about, absolutely nothing.

They also acknowledged the importance of protecting the vulnerable in the budget; capping salaries for ministers’ advisers; not another red cent to the banks. Need I go on?

Spot on Tommy.

I worked for a multinational a few years back, jumped ship just before they announced that they were about to up sticks and head to India, after 30 years.

Not sure why corporation tax is such a sacred cow – we can’t do without the multinationals at the moment, true, but they’re a short term fix, we can pander to them all we like, but they’re still going to pack up and leave whenever it suits them.

Nokia seem happy enough to pay 23% corporation tax in Finland, mind, actually Finland seems to be doing ok in general with that rate.

Thin end of the wedge? Gain control of who pays now and what they pay later

Glad to see the article is amendmended now. This was first proposed back in March by the Commission (following French pressure no doubt).

Some background info for those interested and/or those having trouble sleeping here: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/company_tax/common_tax_base/index_en.htm

It’s no quite changing the tax rates, but rather agreeing a uniform way of calculating how tax is applied. Seems to be a pet peeve of Sarkozy in particular.

Niall – are you out of your tree.

there are – quote unquote – competitive tax regimes in the world, the companies based here aren’t getting away with murder, and, it should be remembered, ***we do not have four hundred year old empire style heavy steel smelting pots at our disposal***

we play our fucking hand.

If you have an advantage, within law and reasonable practise – you take it.

what are we to do -drop the felt cap and feel ashamed for unnamed skullduggery? We set up a competitive environment. It may have gone more than a tad awry, but that isn’t another excuse to punch ourselves in the testicles.

Is London unblemished in the financial products they devised? Or wall street? why is that any less dis-reputable than our own scenario?

If we’re not coming up before the WTO, then all is fair in love and war. we have more than paid for our lax environment as a people, it was smart at times – our legislation and practise with digital commerce aren’t shabby. we have decent neat digital commerce, digital signing etc legislation.

Basically: Cop. the fuck. on. We have to hold to our guns. Given the maths on internationals – we have no choice.

We need them. Internationalised isn’t a phrase for our economy – its a reality. we have to take this to the wall.

We can’t wail over our transgressions and latter failures:

because we are NOT amongst friends here Niall, we simply are not – we will be eaten altogether well fucking alive if we do that shite.
We have to stand over our ground if we can.

Swim2, I get that you’re angry, but the point I’m trying to make … badly … is slightly different. I think the whole system is screwed. The prevailing neoliberal model is so wracked with unrealistic assumptions and contradictions that I think it’s likely to collapse on a global scale, unless changes are made. If “The Markets” and large corporations aren’t retooled, then it’s all pointless anyway – the free (market) world is going to go the way of Soviet Communism.

Political organisations, like sovereign nations and, yes, the EU need to grab back power from “The Markets”, otherwise the whole system is doomed. I’m not sure if any individual nation can stand up to “The Markets” at this point, I’m not even sure if the EU acting alone could, but I think that a Tobin Tax and harsh regulation would be a good start…if the US would come on board, then maybe.

Some chance.

I cant help but be reminded of this interview I saw with Gorbachev, talking about how the Soviet people had a saying in the years leading up to the collapse, “we can’t go on like this”. Maybe it hasn’t gotten that bad, yet, but I fear that it will.

@ Niall

yeah I know – sort of – we’re very close to the edge and maybe beyond will.e coyote style.
sure at least then SWP champagne socialists can throw a street party before they get mugged.

this guy below is a little dodgy in that he is motivational for the doom, but seven minutes in, on that blood freezing exponential debt curve failure in 2008 – its basically terrifying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8WBiTnBwSWc

A guy in the guardian said recently, when it was getting very close to imploding there (a week ago?), that he felt like he was walking around when no one knew it was all going to change in a near equivalent world war style.

Lookit, if it falls, it falls. We’ll have to make the best of it. I do kinda think that our best chance is within the EU, for all its faults – only a supranational organisation will be strong enough to rein in the markets in this day and age, but I don’t think there’s much hope – at least things might stabilise for a couple of years.

But I get the obvious contradiction that the EU was explicitly created as a handmaiden of “The Markets”, and adjust my expectations accordingly.

Used to think that the collapse of capitalism would be much more fun back when I was a student revolutionary, alright.

@Niall “Used to think that the collapse of capitalism would be much more fun back when I was a student revolutionary, alright.”

no, I rather think that’s a stupid statement, and one I suspect you never believed in.

this boils down to self interest on all scales – in simple invisible hand terms, protecting our own terms of commerce, we are best served by defending our own interests.

there is no amorphous hope, there is no EU, most of what you say there is a picturebook – they’re just germans, there is NO EU – in terms of history being rolled forward, it wont be by sentences typed by people in forums about what the EU may do about any given thing, or the right they may wrong against vicious markets – the only extant truth is our own position – in proper, feral tooth and claw manner.

We protect out economic position completely – that is how broader truth derives – let them figure out greater realities based on our complete fuck you. we are paying our debts – none of our financial arrangements are open to discussion.

Put your fucking helmet on and be an Irish Adam Smith. We move our own markets. Fuck nearly everyone at this point. I can say that – god knows kenny can’t – but on some level – if it comes to a treaty that cuts us -fuck everyone.

Right.

What are you actually suggesting here?

I mean, our economic arrangements are already being dictated by the Troika to a fair extent. I’m not sure that oversight can be made any more stringent without a referendum, which would never pass … what would you have us do rather than sign up to harmonised measures?

Leave the EU?

Fine, but I’m not sure how well that’ll wash with your precious multinationals. And what it will mean for our much-vaunted export-led recovery.

Or just leave the Eurozone, and watch the Punt become a little speculative plaything sandwiched between two behemoths. Good luck trying to keep its value under control.

Or stay in, but veto any moves to reform the Eurozone, in which case the Euro will be gone by Christmas, probably with devastating effects for us.

Declare economic war on France and Germany? Think we still need them more than they need us, wouldn’t say they’re much worried by our feral claws, if it comes to that. Although we are sitting on a default-shaped WMD, think the government have severely underplayed our hand on that. Likely to destroy us as well as them if used, though.

Or something else entirely?

My point is that “The Markets” – the quotes and caps are strictly necessary – constrain the possible scope of action for all politicians now, if anything is contemplated that doesn’t seem sufficiently friendly to their interests, punishment will follow – in the bond markets, by multinationals pulling out, etc.

Right at the moment, I think of Merkozy only obliquely as representatives of France and Germany, but primarily as slaves to “investor confidence” – above all else, they need the Euro to survive.

Btw, in his Theory of Moral Sentiment, Adam Smith basically exempted the vast majority of human behaviour from any kind of “fuck everyone” self interest line. Because things just don’t work that way.

“….I think of Merkozy only obliquely as representatives of France and Germany, but primarily as slaves to “investor confidence”

and so you are just as ridiculously lost as anyone mate: you have the same, or different, gargoyles in front of you.

Either we can pull a move, as in we have a long term protective measure we can take, or we bend over and settle for doldrums with no *structural* federal transfers to underpin *common* state projects within an overarching union, a united states run by five or less states that couldn’t give a fuck if we, or another dozen to the east of us lived or died .

or the whole thing is going over. And goodnight then

that’s the three variations right?

either it is something like this now maybe – that we still barely have and we crawl out with an ability to still call the terms of the state we as a nation died for in our grandparents time – my grandfather played with rebel bullets in westport for christs sake.

oh and here – kindly don’t take the piss there. We are less than a century from our own republican dead.

I am sick to the back teeth the degree to which this is swamped. We are a less than a century revolutionary republic. Sod the civil war, could we please ever kindly find our voice given that so many chose to die in order to give it it us quite recently.

I’m not kidding here – its not maudlin. The Irish state has meaning, if only because it was paid for directly in our recent blood.

We are a state paid for in our own blood near the time of the talkies.

I feel no need to think beyond saying: Fuck the Franco-German EU,

and fuck that Franco-German flag.

Ireland was already bullied to raise it from 10% at the end of 2002, just after it entered the Eurozone.

Nobody remembers now, both had negative impact on the economy’s growth.

It’s within the power of government to change the nature of multinationals, that’s kinda where I’m going with this. Make them responsible for more than just the bottom line. Would take a co-ordinated effort on the part of at least the US and EU to achieve this …. and the political will. No chance, in other words. Well, maybe after the whole thing has come crashing down.

Right.. and there I was ranting about tax rates and it having nothing to do with this. CCCTB is where a company pays tax in the country the profit was made in rather than channeling it through holding companies in Ireland. How can we defend ourselves on that? Local legislation in France and Germany could surely put an end to the practice without any treaty changes.

Thanks for clarifying that Hugh. Unfortunately people decided what it means and the ranting about this is unlikely to stop.

Because they don’t over depend on it? Here it’s ‘free money! Yay! Sure we don’t need an indigenous economy…’ Tobin tax, yes please.

I agree. We’re much too reliant on FDI, and self-serving multinationals, we need to start moving away from this, and start concentrating on developing domestic industry.

Irish workers only still have jobs thanks to that low tax rate. Ireland has very high labour costs with crazy high minimum wage.

Corporations move for cheap labour and low tax. Rise the tax and their only reason to be here is gone.

Maybe we should make it more difficult for corporations to move. Maybe it’s time to impose some harsh Corporate Social Responsibility measures, on a Europe-wide basis. Maybe it’s time to make corporations accountable for more than just their financial performance.

I actually think that the leaked approach is a step in the right direction. Think Standard and Poors probably agree with me.

Niall: “we need to start moving away from this, and start concentrating on developing domestic industry”

We don’t have any bar farming and bits and bobs, what we have without the tax dodging multinationals is something left and below of poland.

Between that and the franco-german knee on our testicles we’re about to get amazingly and permanently poorer.

it’s north carolina time in winter, under our blue and yellow stars flag.

The fact that we don’t really have any is kinda my point.

A global overhaul of corporate governance schemes would be my preferred approach, but given the chances, I’d say that we need to develop a plan b.

@swim, I think that’s the point he is making. We need to stand on our own 2 feet, and not rely on corporate pocket money. Why do we always prefer the short term short cuts? Coming to the conclusion that if Ireland was a person it would suffer from low self-esteem, and be an alcoholic. Yes we had hundreds of years of abuse, but we have to stop being victims. ok, rant over – great to see this being discussed in a realistic way for once.

@donncha

but for god’s sake there *are no our own two feet*. we have no two bloody feet. not with our debt levels, expenditure, working population and GNP.

If we are not being bathed in warm international commerce waters on hopefully less than reckless terms – then We Are SCREWED.

Ok? Come on for christs sake – there is no devalera churning our butter solution. We do not exist as we recognise ourselves if we surrender the structural advantages we have designed.

France is displeased with the way we hoover up inward investment. I am displeased they are running a bullshit grape agrarian economy that is sucking up 40% of the EU’s agricultural “prop up the picturesque farmer” cash haul.
We are gnats in comparison. the farmer fund is a french fund.

France is a chimera as an economy – insanely inefficient and untouchable. Where is their austerity? they are a lumbering country – they couldn’t have passed one tenth of our recent budgets without the locals setting the entire bloody paris metro and the motorways on fire.

They are spoilt shits, but they will wring us dry: for the last time kids – WE ARE NOT AMONGST FRIENDS HERE.

we back our system.

let the imperials back theirs. This isn’t a union, its a bully fight.

All due respect, chief, but would you ever calm down? Or maybe accept that the French people, where:

“they couldn’t have passed one tenth of our recent budgets without the locals setting the entire bloody paris metro and the motorways on fire”

are on to something and get involved with either resistance or trying to create an alternative.

For me, “The Markets” are the problem … but I don’t see a solution. Well, I do, but not a realistic one. The arrangement of power that developed through Thatcherism and Reagonomics, the hand off of power to “The Markets”,and was furthered by the EU, is now coming back to bite us.

Merkozy is just the public face of a much more fundamental problem – I think that they’re trapped by “The Markets”.

“we stay in the Eurozone, give up the 12.5% corporation tax” that is

Don’t be such a dick! If you have a problem with the article have the decency to emailing the journalist using the email facility provided. You only make a complete arse of yourself by doing it publicaly.

No Desmond, I’m not “temporarily filling in from the sports pages”. See response below.

There’s enough sloppy reporting around Europe going on,, especially around sensitive issues like sovereIgnty and tax. It really is time that journalists took more care about such issues. You can see from much of the ill-informed comment on this thread how dangerous such lack of attention to facts can be. Thanks for correcting your article all the same, but the headline is still misleading.

Desmond…… I know by your method of posting you’re a self serving little attention-seeker. No real valid point to make.

No – desmond has a real point – that was sloppy reporting: tax rate and tax base are insanely different things – its hard to avoid the conclusion it was outright sloppy reporting given how radically wrong the original piece was. these are touchy issues. I went ALL CAPS above at the notion of the french rumpelstilskin/german sweetbread pair gouging away at the likes of our corporate tax rate again – particularly given the outright lie that is france’s official corporate tax rate.

Still: hands up who isn’t sick to the back teeth of the wallowing hogs at the core? this entire exercise and the rejection of common bonds is a refusal to acknowledge the part their banks played in the meltdown, allied to an ironclad demand their reckless banks get back every last cent from every knee-capped quarter.

This isn’t a union – it’s a bloody gang for the rich old powerful few. and we’re not in it. The majority of the union aren’t in the gang.

We’re not Europeans, because there is no Europe – it is a lie.
No european institution has played any part in resolving this: not the parliament, the commission, the president or the council of ministers.

All that pseudo democratic architecture is bumfluff.
right behind it is the old imperial lot – and they take no prisoners. They’ll see half of europe on the rack for over a decade rather than accept any shared responsibility. their banks leant, just like ours, like drunken sailors. they leant like drunken sailors to all the spanish, irish, eastern european banks. But their own banks are untouchable. Some pigs are more special than other pigs. German and french pigs (financial institutions) are the most special of all. No one will ever be allowed to touch them. Or even ask the question. In our common union

there is no common shared truth, or any shared struggle –
what in Jesus’s name was kenny doing with that stupid blue yellow star flag behind him?

the flag is a complete lie.

They want to harmonize both, make no mistake about it. If only because theirs are high.

@Gary, would harmonizing the tax base hinder the Double Irish Arrangement? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_Arrangement

I’m no expert but I do know tax base and tax rate are very different. Going to do more reading on the subject.
@Raf. French corporate tax rates are not really any higher than our in real terms. So Sarkosy will flap his mouth but don’t expect our corporate tax rate to be changed.

My understanding is that US corporations base their subsidiaries in Ireland not because of the 12.5% corporate tax rate (which they mostly avoid) but because of an Irish law that allows capitals to be transferred to tax havens without incurring into taxation. Please also read this article http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-shows-how-60-billion-u-s-revenue-lost-to-tax-loopholes.html/

Good point, Claudio.

I’ve gotten a lot of milage out of how the very wealthy need to pull their weight in these “exceptional tomes”, was almost afraid to get started on corporations … but they make our millionaires and billionaires look like small beans by comparison.

If this thread is anything to go by, taxation of corporations is still off limits for a lot of people.

“French corporate tax rates are not really any higher than our in real terms. ”

To me there is a bit of a difference between 12.5% and 33.33%
They also have e.g. 62% social tax, equivalent of PRSI which is around 15% (in both countries disguised by splitting into employer and employee part).

To be honest I don’t have a problem with the Double-Irish thing. They pay loads of tax via payroll, their happy employees pay VAT every day. It’s good in the end.

Also, what people seem to forget, 12.5% tax applies to Irish companies, not only multinationals.

“A company’s obligation to its shareholders is to try to minimize its taxes and all costs, but to do so legally,” Plotkin said in an interview.

What about a company’s obligations to its host community and society? It doesn’t really have any, under the current scheme.

A person relentlessly pursues self interest, crossing the lines of legality occasionally and they’re likely to be diagnosed as a psychopath and institutionalised. CEO fails to direct his company to act like this, and he’s likely to be removed.

Don’t be such a fool. These companies are the only reason we haven’t a 30%+ unemployment rate. They are keeping us out of the shit, this isn’t about being fair to the tax payer by having them pay their share. If they don’t have any reason to stay here (ie. low corp tax rate) they’ll move on to somewhere that has the same rate but lower labour costs. You are a total idiot if you think that they are going to share the burden because it’s fair..you are obviously a sinn feiner as it’s something those lunatics would come out with!

Well said Aaron. I wouldn’t go as far as “calling their bluff” as you suggest, but I don’t see that a 1 or 2 % rise would cause a mass exodus. Low corporation tax is just one factor contributing to their profits.

The day we budge the corporation tax by any percentage point will be the day the Europeans see us as weaker than we are. No means no sarkozy so just fuck off to that wife you bought

Fair point Alan.

absolutely agree. We have defended this for so long we have brainwashed ourselves into thinking it needs to be protected at detrimental cost to everyone and everything else. 20% is still low.

if it is standardized then French and German companies will suffer too. they have alp sorts of schemes to off set corporate tax.

I think you’re confusing corporation tax with the corporate tax base; 2 different things