Do you know this austerity thing? Whats the alternative?

Lots of red thumbs but no answers, typical Irish response.

James

The alternative is that we borrow 11 billion from the ESM. We then give this 11 billion back to the ESM for them to bail out other countries banks. We then pay interest on the money that we borrowed from the ESM to lodge into the ESM. As you can see its a ridiculous alternative.

Ann, I asked what the alternative to austerity was? Seriously, sick of all the posters saying ‘vote no to austerity’ when there is no alternative other than all our debtors to collectively say, ‘d’ya know what lads? that money we lent ya? no need to pay it back’. Also, we manage to balance our current books immediately without any effect on anyone.

There’s going to be austerity either way. With the Fiscal Compact, there will be no growth .. so permanent austerity.

censored. All the limits set out in the fiscal compact already exist in agreements we’ve signed up to, some from 20 years ago. That is a fact. Our need for balancing the books (or austerity as we seem to like to call it) is because we borrow one third of all government spending. But then you know all this.

Yep, and like you I also know this treaty doesn’t tackle the real problem in Europe.

Yes Gary.. Rules that Germany and France had found a work around for when it suited THEM.. Different rule for us though..

censored. I can’t help but notice that you agreed with me but that it is at odds with the previous post you made. So which is it?

Shanti Om. I assume from this you want to stop countries being able to ignore the rules which they currently can. The only way to get them to stop ignoring the current rules is to vote Yes to this treaty. It changes the enforcement from needing a majority to do it, to needing a majority to stop it. I’m glad we can agree.

@Gary: who can really argue with an agreement to maintain responsible limits on spending?

But as you know, these limits are already in existing treaties. So what’s this treaty really about?

It’s an endorsement of the EU suicide pact created by Merkel and Sarkozy. I don’t believe this is going to resolve the crisis. Need to go back to the drawing board and come up a better idea … and in Irelands case, they need to start with a realistic proposal for handling the debt.

No Gary, what I’m saying is this two tiered system is bullcrap. One rule for us and another for them.
The approach is sensible but not UNTIL growth has risen to acceptable levels to be able to achieve any of it. This treaty is a perfect example of cart before the horse.
Right now what we need is to get people back to work, everything else should wait.

Nicely put Shanti. Getting people back to work has to be the priority.

One of the main things this treaty changes is how the rules are enforced, it doesn’t change the rules, they are already there. You’re complaining on one hand that countries didn’t follow the rules but objecting to the treaty that would force them to follow the rules. As is usual you guys confuse me.

And Shanti perhaps you’d explain to me which economic school thinks you can borrow one third of all government spending and also spend a load of money on growth? As I said already the Americans have spent hundreds of billions on stimulus and have not really had much growth.

I wouldn’t say “incorrect” because despite their best efforts to appear stupid, I doubt that they are that dumb.

No, they simply lied to the people who elected them

of = if

successfully/unsuccessfully

come = comes

A chance to reedit and correct typos on own comments would be great. A real keyboard rather than smartphone screen wouldn’t hurt either.

In my view John that just a lot of generalisation. Most Germans are very like us. Another thing about Germans including their justice system,they are very fair.

That’s why I said they were generalisations. It would be easy enough to write a list of Irish generalisations, and the same rules apply. People are people, but culture’s develop characters and character traits. I did say that these came from my experience of having lived in Germany for 7 years, and also that they’re not necessarily negative. These traits have helped them as individuals and as a nation tremendously. Lastly, it’s very clear that this is my experience and my opinion. Whether you agree or not is up to you. I’d just like to cut out a lot of the misconceptions that lead people to make wildly inaccurate comments on this site.

How are those characteristics different from recent Irish Governments:

1. they never apologise
2. they never admit to having made a mistake
3. they never admit to weakness
4. once set on a plan, they following it rigidly ….

@ censored – Yes, they fit, but let’s add in some more that fit the Irish character, politicians or otherwise:

We choose to present ourselves as “warm but weak” rather than “strong but callous”

We put far too much value on being liked.

When we know we’re losing an argument, we’ll switch to emotive, unverifiable battle cries.

We complain and blame other people for our problems, but we don’t take any action to solve those problems.

We like getting the boot in at any chance possible.

We actively choose the role of victim, as it absolves us of responsibility.

Germans don’t put much stock in empathy, it can make them appear arrogant or patronising. But they don’t live in a nanny state, they generally don’t put up with incompetent and insincere politicians and, most importantly, they are not malicious or have master plan to enslave the EU.

Blame the Irish government or blame the German people. It makes no sense to do both.

John,
I find this description of Germans quite worrying. Thankfully it’s not true of any German person I have ever met.

The refusal to ever apologise, admit to mistakes, or show any weakness. The preferring to be seen as strong rather than weak and showing no empathy, caring little for others’ input, proceeding with tasks and expecting others to just comply even when all evidence shows it is doomed.. These are all symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder.. Or high level functioning psychopathy..
Having that in charge of the EU would mean the EU was a Pathocracy, and they never work out well.. At present, when the level of unaccountability is considered it does seem we are headed this way, a sneaky and sly dictatorship.

I really hope you are talking out of your hat on this one, I would like to believe you have got it wrong.. You could have said the same of our politicians, but the people are different.. Politics has become the sole aim of high level psychopaths the world over, the people need to wake up to this and topple the Pathocracy..

@ Shanti – Read on. I’m not saying this is how German people are, believe me. We’re all individuals ( except him on his own over there). There’s a reason I used the word generalisations. The general cultural “tics” that people from a certain culture bring with them, that they are not always aware of and sometimes get misinterpreted as conscious, intentional behaviours. Sn Irish example is we don’t put as much value in punctuality as Germans do, but we don’t intentionally mean to offend Germans with our sloppy timekeeping. There are benefits to all of these. Germans don’t generally present themselves as victims, they don’t play the “poor me” card, and they don’t pretend that they’re not aware if what they’re doing. Thanks for the comments anyway, nice to read your comments over the last few weeks, I’m slipping into lurk mode from now on.

Having lived in Germany for 6 years John Conniffe I can only suggest you get out more if that is your opinion of Germans.

Thank you John, like I said – kinda worrying that “cultural tics” sound so similar to a personality disorder!

Of course we are all different, but really the world over if you take a look around their houses of parliament / palaces you will find a high percentage of psychopaths. It’s not new, and it’s not unique to any country.. Psychopaths crave power, they’re not really skilled people, but they are good at manipulating.. Politics was designed for them.

They are a minority, they just happen to insert themselves into whatever position of authority they can.. There’s another sub section of society predisposed to following their example, but again it’s a minority. The majority of people in any given country are going to be people capable of compassion and thinking rationally.

It’s a shame to see you want to leave.. Hopefully we may see you again some time? (or you’ll stick it out, your entitled to contribute as much as anyone else!)

@ Shanti – weening myself off, only answering comments on my comments now, all very meta.

Personally, I reckon individuality just a collection of personality disorders. Quirks and tics make us all unique, and the more of that the better. They’re only disorder when they stop a person from functioning in the world, or damage others. Everything’s a matter of degree, there’s no black and white. No “yes” and “no”, just degrees of “yes, but..”

I liked this website. I discuss work inGerman, socialise in German, moan in German, party in German. It’s nice to have a chance to use English as something other than my job. But there’s books to read and stuff to do that shouldn’t feel like I’m stuck in a party with a gang of alternative comedians from the Thatcher era. Time for a break, where’s my KitKat..

@ Kerry – in all sincerity, I feel you missed the point I was trying to make. My bad, if I wasn’t clear enough..

It’s Merkel

Frau Merkil you numpty

She’s Edna’s boss!!!

Vote YES for Jobs ! . . . .Sorry , that was the last Treaty ,what was i thinking

Lucky we have over a thousand jobs created this year eh!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0525/1224316665459.html

CHANCELLOR ANGELA Merkel has said Germany will not allow any changes to the fiscal treaty, before or after the Irish referendum.

“Four countries have already ratified, so no change will happen,” said the chancellor’s spokesman, Steffen Seibert.

Yesterday Taoiseach Enda Kenny and Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore insisted there will be no changes to the fiscal treaty text on which the electorate will vote next Thursday.

Kenny isn’t wrong. And it isn’t just Kenny saying it nor is it just Fine Gael. EU officials have confirmed such also. But sure, I suppose there all conspiring together to fool the Irish.

If Merkel and co decide to tackle the real problems in Europe and come up with a realistic plan to deal with the economic crisis then I would vote yes.

The fact that they introduced this treaty is just more evidence of their refusal to deal with reality. If we continue down this path then it’s likely to lead to the end of the Eurozone, and possibly the end of the EU. This crisis has already stirred up enough hatred and division between the former “partners”.

Do you know what conditions will be added to the funding offered under the growth pack that doesn’t even exist yet gary?

censored. Herein lies one of the problems… it’s the “real problems” as outlined by the no camp. There is disagreement about how to proceed as you well know.
G8 summit: Lessons in stimulus versus austerity around the G8
http://www.independent.ie/business/european/g8-summit-lessons-in-stimulus-versus-austerity-around-the-g8-3111859.html
This article outlines why it’s just not so simple to fix the “real problems”. Of course with us borrowing one third of all government spending we’ll need to balance the books, no matter what.

Of the referendum could be ( it won’t ) pushed back a few months until a “growth” treaty is hammered out, the rational thing for many No voters to do would be to vote Yes but at the same time lobby the independents to pull the numbers together to call for a vote of no confidence. I understand why people want to use the referendum as a protest vote against the government, but it’d be futile, as a successful No vote doesn’t mean they have to stand down or address the fact that they’ve alienated a large part of the population. But this will never happen. The No propagandists have turned rational arguments into irrational emotional ones.

I know what’s coming next. “blueshirt!” “traitor!”, all the old reliable commenters popping up. So, for the very last time: the No propagandists are a mix of the easily led and the cynically manipulative. The Yes propagandists are a bunch of overly-smug, tediously droll careerists who are not half as clever as they assume they are. The insane and sociopathic are, well, insane and sociopathic. Lump them all together and you have a group of people who are damaging Ireland at least as much as the current government.

So, thanks to all the intelligent, rational, interesting commenters, I’ll give it a day or so to lurk and ween myself through the cold turkey, and then it’s time to delete the app. The site’s just not fun anymore.

Trueleft. Let’s see… The no camp *demanded* a referendum. Then when it looked like a Yes they demanded we postpone. Then when they realised we can’t legally postpone they pretended they’ll really like the government to change the law to be able to cancel a referendum. Knowing full well they’d go mental if the government ever tried to stop one when they didn’t want it, which could easily happen. Then tried to say well Hollande is going to change it anyway to what’s the point we should all vote no (makes no logical sense but they claimed it). And all the while have used the word ‘growth’ like it actually magically changes anything. The Americans have pumped mega billions into stimulus for very little benefit to the money spent.
So to answer you question, the only thing I’m sure about is the contents of the treaty in front of us.

@Gary, I’ve read that article.

Canada needed both massive spending cuts AND strong economic growth in the rest of the world to help it move out of crisis. The austerity policy requires an external “miracle” to make it work. We saw the same with Germany.

Not only is there is no sign of such a miracle right now, but we’re also lumbered with this crushing debt. I want to see some proposals on these topics. We’ve waited long enough already.

Eh Gary maybe you should check through your notes and you might find the AG of your government advised that a referendum should be held? Try to stick to the facts in future that is unless you aspire to be a TD.

To clarify for you Kerry, the no camp demanded a referendum and the AG decided one was needed. Didn’t think I needed to explain that.

censored. The point I’m making is there is no easy fix and no simple answers. Some things have worked in some places and not worked in others. We all want growth but it’s been said like it’s a magic fix and will somehow stop us having to balance our budgets (or stop austerity as the no camp like to call it).

There is no easy fix – that’s true. That’s not an argument to continue the same policies that have manifestly failed since 2008. Maybe time for a different approach?

And now you’re claiming to be a “realist”? A fantasist more like. You’re as bad as the people you’re calling out here. Are you looking at this treaty realistically or are you just following the party line?

Makes sense, that. You must be in the wrong place.

To be completely honest, its a common sense approach. But it wouldn’t work in Ireland. The Irish think the cuts they have now are bad, and complain as such. But leaving the rule aside and just getting into the nitty gritty and plucking the shite out of our finances, cutting wages, cutting waste etc. without prior approval of Unions would cause an all out strike and fury. You would be in the Greece situation. Pro-Euro, but they wont take cuts or savings from anybody and go out on a violent rampage across the city to make their point of fury.

So you admit that the treaty we are voting on next week is not in its final form?

O’Reilly I guess the full quote would be

“ANGELA MERKEL HAS accepted the need to add a separate set of measures promoting growth to the Fiscal Treaty, according to the leader of Germany’s opposition.”

Selective editing there I think. You must be learning from SF. The important bit “add a separate set of measures promoting growth to the Fiscal Treaty,”

Note the TO the Fiscal Treaty.

Kerry,
picture it. Official’s gets a blank piece of paper (or word doc) On it, the write a stimulus pact – Euro bonds and the like. They then ADD it to the current fiscal pact. Hey presto, a fiscal pact about budgetary rules and disciplines the rules of which hasn’t changed one iota with an added growth pact. Now you can call that a complete rewrite then that’s fine. You too, Trueleft…

I see, and whats in the added growth pact, and what conditions will be attached to accessing funding available through this imaginary pact that doesn’t exist yet, but you’re an expert on anyway?

Hey presto O’Reilly that means we are being asked to vote on something that is not confirmed as the complete doc or even better ‘blank piece of paper’ picture that if you will. Tell me O’Reilly do you sign incomplete legal documents often?

The text in the treaty wont change. That is a fact. Adding a pact onto the end of it is different, and is only required a vote on if it requires change to our constitution. This is what was being said all along. It might not even be added onto this treaty for all we know. If it turns out that Europe decide to change their minds and re-write the Fiscal Compact or change a chunk – we will be asked to vote again.

But seeing as Europe are saying this wont be happening and that a growth pack will eventually be created and added onto a treaty (as is common) or brought in another way (just like most of the stuff the No side mention in this campaign, nothing to do with this treaty and already something we agreed to do and will be doing anyway) then there is hardly any point in stalling it to “wait and see” especially if the “see” moment is something that doesn’t require a vote.

But we all know this, and Too Trueleft knows this, but will pretend otherwise and counter claim otherwise until the sun goes down and back up again anyway. There is no defeating or correcting someone on the No camp who is so insistent that they are right and plucking figures and rules out of the air that don’t exist or have nothing to do with the treaty. So its best to simple clarify it for those who genuinely want to know and bow out.

Yeah, like that’s going to happen. For god sake. Voting No wont send shockwaves that Europe come begging to us saying “Oh please Kenny, please Eamonn, we will do what you ask just agree with us”. Europe will simply say “No Thanks” and walk. They don’t NEED us. Fact. Unlike Lisbon.

Plus, as Ganley well knows, we have a better bargaining chip if we agree to these fiscal rules. Go and politely point out – we have met all the targets of the EU/IMF deal, things are getting back on track, we have agreed to protect our budgets going forward. Now, we can not survive nor sustain the current level of debt. Lets work together to address it” rather than going say “Ah sure listen, we won’t obey by your pesky rules but you better give us a damn good deal now before we even re-consider it boyo.” Who in their right mind would refuse the first and accept the second request when they don’t need to accept it?

Then you have the bandwagon jumpers who say Europe do need us, technically, because we could drag everyone down. I don’t see Europe jumping to the Greeks aid in such alarming fashion begging and saying “We will do ANYTHING, just stay!!” and their fiscal situation is 10x worse than ours.

Yep. Ireland has been the poster child for austerity policies since 2008. We’re the good student. That’s why our economy is booming now. When is the “bargaining” going to start?

Wow, you must get up pretty early in the morning to be wrong so much in just one day, and squeezing so much wrongness into a single post is truly the work of a master. Did you do a FÁS wrongness course or something?