Are you serious?

Yip his pension in the private sector would be worth the equivalent of €5,000,000!

@rob. It’s actually difficult to assess the true value. It’s an actuarial value as there is no “pension pot” – its paid from current expenditure same as all PS pensions.

If a person is a govt minister for 10 years their “pot” is estimated to be worth 6 million. If the minister is young enough when he leaves it’s more, if he’s older it’s less. Dick Springs would have been worth way more for example as he was f@cked out years ago. But based on an average of 6 million over 10 yrs, if u were to get the same in the private sector you’d have to contribute 30k per MONTH – every month – for 10 years AND assume a good return.

And with the changes Howlin made today it will continue to be paid from current expenditure in 40 years time – with one exception – PS workers everywhere, brace yourself for my hug – new PS workers will pay MORE into their pension pot then they ever get out. The private sector equivalent would be a pension fund that loses money every year for 40 years. This is unfair and I think, illegal and I’ll match with the PS if they choose to object to this. They should have simply given new PS private pension arrangements with 5% matching contributions

*march

Brain Haze…I’d an aunt came down with that.

Too much BSE in the diet causes it..

The technical term being Bull Shit Extract.

@ Reginald.. Of course they will!!

Why would anyone want to vote for Fine Gael?

They effectively did … they did away with the 15,000 unvouched expenses allowance and replaced it with a 23,200 vouched allowance. My maths is not that good, but i think that equates to a 8.2k increase of payments into their bank accounts on a yearly basis.

Well what other party would you vote for instead of Fine Gael.

Fianna Fáil – got us into this mess
Sinn Féin – dodgy past, crazy economic policies
ULA – even crazier economic policies
Labour – puppets of the Trade Unions.
Independents – wasted vote, doesn’t give you a government

Direct Democracy Ireland followed by Any Other New Party followed by independents. But never ever again FG/FF/Lab. I’d even vote SF if I had to to keep FG out.

David Higgins, Happy new year to you and yours…

OK, Are you suggesting that FFG don’t have a dodgy past? They didn’t collude in the cover up of many many murders? Their outright refusal to the familes of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings, Belturbet bombings, targgetted assasinations in Donegal by the British Army?
Lets not forget their Blue Short campaign, their murder of prisoners from the four courts weeks after they had surrendered. No one in the four courts had killed anyone, and one of them was a sitting TD.
Damn, you have a limited view of what is dodgy… grrr

Next, economic policies… FFG/FF/Labour all joined forces to distort the Mahon and Moriarty Tribunals. They cost this country 500 million euro and after the findings were published, they dismissed them and refused to sack sitting TDs who were found by the Tribunals to be corrupt.

Next, economic policies… targetting the poorest and least well off in our society (respite care grants etc) and refusing to increase the tax rate for people earning over 100,00 per year was severely criticized by the IMF (that body being recognised globally as an economic think tank). Your economic policies have been exposed for exactly what they are… self-serving and unjustifiable.

Next, your party is doing everything it can to procrastinate on the Abortion issues. 20 odd years, they have not managed to put forward a proposal on a Bill to legislate for the case (whether in government or not). Even though the people voted for it twice, and the European courts of human rights told you to do it.

Next, getting into Government on pledges that they immediately abandoned is the most corrupt form of Government.

Please…. any or all of the above listed in your post, would be better than your party with the exception of Labour and FF… Labour/FF/ FFG (Continuity FF) are all the same with their snouts in the trough of the Irish tax payer.

No one from Fine Gael is linked to 50 murders.

No one from Fine Gael spent €50k on ink cartridges.

No one from Fine Gael was ever a member of the IRA.

Are you sure about that now David? Think long and hard about that one!!!

“No one from Fine Gael is linked to 50 murders.”

Linked by those bastions of integrity, the british secret service, and acquitted in a british court.

You YFGs finest david??

Just like dear ole Enda…slinging shite around like snuff at a wake.

ahhh come on David .. You are going to compare 50,000 euro over a 2 year period on Ink Toner, versus your own part member who used 17,000 in one year to end of December 2012… Why did you not mention the 3 million euro, yes, 3 million your party used on printing material at the tax payers expense to sell Government propaganda in one campaign in 2012. The supreme court said you spent the money illegally … Will you be returning it any time soon?
I just listed off a host of murders that your party covered up, and then you make an allegation of a member of the Dail who was acquitted by the same British system that made the false allegation in the first place. Like come on … You are scraping the bottom of the barrel if that is your party’s only defense :D

Is there any chance you could return some of the 500 million your party saw fit to pay to barristers and solicitors during the Mahon and Moriarty tribunal. It really does put the 50,000 euro over two years into perspective … doesn’t it.

Please give the Irish people back their money. And please ask your dear leader to stop putting more money into his bank account every year, than Barak O’Bama gets put into his.

Why did FFG/Labour cover up on the murders of the people in Dublin Monaghan, There were 5 times the number of people murdered that one day, than by the entire 35 year campaign by the IRA in the 26 counties. Why after the Dublin/Monaghan massacre, did your party put the families under special branch watch? Did you guys not have something to hide? Why was there never a tribunal, despite all the evidence that was widely available. Why, even when one of the murderers admitted to his part in it, did FFG/Labour never look to seek an investigation.

You mention 50 murders with clear innuendo to a sitting TD. Can you name any of the 50 murder victims names? I could give you the names of all 32 murder victims from Dublin/Monaghan.
Blood/Corruption, hallmarks of your party that you defend so dearly.

David – I think in Kerry alone I could name them for you !

David – will I get you a list of those vast number of FG ( Cumann na nGael then) who themselves were Members of the IRA – or perhaps you would like to Google it yourself – let’s just start you off – Michael Collins , Arthur Griffith , William Cosgrave , numerous members of the Fitzgerald Family etc etc etc – silly boy David !

Jeepers Cal!!! You most certainly must have got out the wrong side of the bed this morning!
You have been in this site ranting all day! Relax!

Recently met Brian Hayes at a function and put my hypotheses to him. He immediately broke out in ‘Alien Spake’ I cut him short. Look me straight in the eyes and deny it I said. He couldn’t

Reg, damn you must be tired today, if you are going to argue with me, without researching your rebuttal.
Kenny is the third highest paid in Europe, and that is before he pays himself an extra 50,000 per year as a party leader.
I know you challenged me, as it is such an incredible statistic… but sadly, it is true…

Check out the link for yourself from yesterdays Indo.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/enda-kenny-is-still-third-bestpaid-leader-in-the-eu-3340256.html

It’s the President of the USA comparison that I have the problem with. I even hear it stated on TV and it goes unchallenged. It is not true.

Seriously Reg
Is THAT your only problem?

Even if it’s a statistical fact….

Its a statistical fact that I could lower the unemployment figure by driving a lorry into a queue outside a dole office. Doesn’t mean its a statistical fact to be proud of David, even though it would ruin far less lives than your partys economic policies.

So we shouldn’t plug our budget deficit?

Our budget defect last year was 18 billion. We also paid bondholders 18 billion. I agree with you that the defecit should be plugged but differ in the solution. Your partys solution seems to be further cripple the most vulnerable while letting your rich buddies laugh all the way to the bank.

We should plug it NOW by slashing higher paid PS pay and numbers. Abolish quangos and lay those people off. Reform existing PS pensions. Reduce welfare. Force down medical costs. Increase tax on income in excess of 150k but ensure nobody pays more than 50% tax

If we balance the books the bank debt would get a write down immediately.

Since FG came in theyve borrowed another 30 billion for the current account. 15 this year. Same last year. Half an Anglo

Good ol’ SCP. We can fix Irelands problems by hitting everyone whos not like him.

@werejammin. Exsqueeeeeze me. I’ve no problem paying more tax provided its not wasted on wasters

You want welfare cut. Are people on welfare ‘wasters’?

No. Let me clarify. I’ve a family renting a house and social welfare pay almost all their rent. They’ve been here 4 years now and have twice turned down a council house. They should not be allowed to do that. I also feel if ur unemployed for 12 months and are physically able to work then u should work 5 hours a day 5 days a week for charity or community schemes. This wud eliminate air of fraud in the system

If u get a years pay in redundancy u shud not be allowed sign on for a year

“werejammin” – Firstly, you clearly don’t understand basic accounting and finance. Bondholders being paid were paid from the national account, not the current account. Whatever way you look at it, we spend more than we take in. This year we will spend €130 for every €100 taken in. Nothing to do with bondholders etc… and it needs to be plugged by a mix of three methods; 1)Taxation increases, 2)Expenditure cuts, 3)Growth. A mixture of all three will only work.

I’m also curious as you keep referring to “bondholders” and how we should not pay them, yet immediately disregard the creditor hierarchy. Can you please give me your definition or description of a “bondholder” please?

Dale, if you’re going to accuse a person of not understanding something, you may (especially at your tender age) want to avoid immediately following the statement with canned clichés and excerpts from your leaving cert accountancy book.

Care to address any of the points I made?

Fianna fail destroyed this country yet they are hardly mentioned in these pages Wonder why ?

I’ll address one dale for the hell of it, which like the rest of your post isn’t really worth responding to.

“Bondholders being paid were paid from the national account, not the current account. ”

Irrelevant and incorrect in many instances, as funds are portable between both. In the case of unguaranteed bondholders, there was no moral or legal onus to pay billions out last year. As the banks in question are wholly or partly owned by the public, this could have been used instead to plug the deficit.

The Croke Park agreement should be scrapped ASAP. Reverse “benchmarking” which in hindsight was a crazy FF policy! It’s interesting to note that no FF TD has recommended the scrapping of the Croke Park Agreement. I wonder why? Can any FF TD explain? How about reducing pensions of all TD’s? is the Labour Party still controlled by the Trade Unions. is this democracy?

@Dermot. I stand open to correction on this. Labour get a % of all union dues paid in the country. Certainly used to be the case. The Labour Party are funded by the unions and u don’t bite the hand that feeds ya

You can’t do any of those things without stable public finances.

You do have choices how to achieve those stable public finances though David, many many choices! Sadly the party you are a member of have chose to punish children, the sick, disabled, elderly and poor while leaving PAYE workers over €100k a year untouched. It’s all about choices David, you know that well!

Why is €100K always targeted? Why not €90k or €110K or €95K? It’s a pie in the sky figure, plucked out because it sounds good.

What are you on about Dale? It’s a comparison tax rate that self employed get taxed compared to paye workers? There’s nothing pie in the sky about it, in case you don’t know, revenue work off thresholds, €100k is one of them where self employed are treated worse than PAYE workers.

Just so you all know: on a day when so much good news was released, during a week full of good news, those of you lashing out at the perceived incompetence of this Government just sound like ridiculous bitter begrudgers actually willing our country to fail rather than recognising progress. Unemployment is too high? Our debt is to big? No kidding. But we’re on the right path and less time should be spent whining about what’s happened and more time spent acknowledging successes when they come.

@scrap- what about the near 70,000 who came to Ireland last year?

Vincent if u think it’s acceptable to lose 70k Irish people to be replaced by 70k non nationals, well says it all really

Do you know what Vincent, you’re right! I mean it’s not like teenagers are committing suicide while the head of the HSE mental health department is saying the cuts are going to impact on mental health services. I mean we must be mad to be complaining about ministers paying themselves enormous amounts of money when just last month 50% of the td’s whose expenses were checked were overclaiming, all this while they cut grants to our most vulnerable. You are right Vincent, we actually live in Utopia, sher what’s wrong with us, not like there’s children sick and hungry, not like we are exporting our young to get jobs and abortions. This country is an example to the world, you are right of course you are, we will all shut up now!

Exactly Vincent, all the jobs were lost after the economic framework fell apart. Fix the framework and there’s a fighting chance of getting the jobs back. This is not over, not by a long shot, but every piece of news like this is another step in the right direction.

And u need to read beyond the headlines. This is a fudge. It will be proven to be a fudge. Our borrowing rates went up this am. U were saying last night to “watch as borrowing rates fall”. #deluded

I hear what you’re saying Vincent. This country is under an umbrella of negativity.

It’s just difficult for the people to be fully positive when you know that whilst he government are baking successes, these successes are being sucked away by having to pay that debt and people find it insulting that the government have the cheek to report information in a twisted version to the public

Hi Scrap,
where did you read there was 100,000 Irish given Oz visas in last 4 years?
This shows 20,000 were given Working Holiday visas in 2011 & 2010.. and some of those were reapplying to extend:
http://www.irishecho.com.au/2012/02/09/sharp-rise-in-number-of-irish-wh-visas/15798

Just asking by the way; is there other one visas that I’m overlooking?

by the way, I used a link to an Ozzie site so I wouldn’t get whacked with a charge for linking to an Irish paper :)

@colin. I can’t find the original link. Here’s one showing 55,000 Irish born people working in oz at August 2012
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/statistics/country-profiles/_pdf/ireland.pdf

There’s another 18,000 on partner visas also listed above.

Assuming the missing 27,000 went between August and December. It’s possible the original link I had counted some twice as there’s holiday working visas, partner visas and citizenship applications. However from the link above its quite clear that as of last August there were 73,000 Irish born in oz. hope that helps

It does indeed, Scrap! Thanks for the reply.
I went to Oz in 2002. Loved it. It seems an eternity ago that people just went for the fun.

@Diarmaid- fair dues to you. To the untrained eye my comment read like “its because times are tough that we should take good news when it comes.” Luckily you didn’t fall for my subtle rouse and read the subtext that “everything’s great in the country.” Excellent work.

@John- Agreed. Nothing fair about any if this, but it’s done. It should all be about the rebuild now.

@scrap- good article on the BBC website yesterday. “Where are the missing Irish?” Irish numbers in the UK are falling.

I saw it. They were saying a combination of 1950s emigrants dying off and newer ones using uk as a staging post to save enough to get to Canada or Oz. if I rem correctly

Well judging by people’s reaction to your comment, perhaps you should brush up on your sarcasm lessons, have you met anyone from YFG on here? Your comment would have been entirely plausible should it have come from them, so park your smugness at the door and think before you type next time – clearly not everyone is as clever as you!

@Diarmaid. You, for example.

Yes me Vincent, you’re fantastically intelligent, I am less intelligent than you (Hint: There is sarcasm in that).

Aren’t we great too? Angela must be so pleased with us… Heil Merkel!

Sometimes when I read the comments on the state of Ireland I often wonder if it is a viable entity. It has consistently failed to provide sustainable employment for hugh numbers of its population since the famine. Every 30 yrs it haemorrhages the cream ofvits population to the four corners of the earth and a Brian Hayes is wheeled out to tell us everything is going fine. I think it was Brian Lenihan Sr who said ” sure its only a small island. There isnt room for everyone” or words to that effect. A small dysfunctional island that has never really recovered from a lack of industrialisation , and church interference in matters of state. There is only 4.5 million of us , less than some European cities. This year we hokd the presidency of Europe but behind all the pomp we are a debtor nation , one of a group of nations, subservient to dominant creditor nations. That appears to be our lot, cap in hand, toora loora loora, The Gathering, sell the family silver, turn in on ourselves like passengers on a sinking ship.Throw the poor and sick overboard first, then the working man. Last on board will be those who make the rules, for us but not for them.

@strongbow- this is a magnificent nation that bats way above its weight on the international stage. Contrast the conduct and history of most other European nations since 1916 and you’ll see we Irish can be prouder than most of the last hundred years . This is not our greatest moment, but our emergence from the predicament we find ourselves in now will be our finest hour- definitive proof of the fortitude of our people and potential of our nation.

@vincent. I would love nothing better if that were true. But it’s not. Since the foundation of this state we’ve had a system of government set up to enrich politicians and provide jobs for the boys. It’s despairing to see it. From Howlin despicably creating a two tier public service, pulling the ladder up after the grossly over paid cosseted ones safely aboard to the awarding of the contract to run The Gathering to Jim Miley, former FG general secretary. The country stinks to high heaven.

Well I have bad news for u Vincent. Looks like the vast majority of the thousands who emigrated last year were not unemployed, but private sector tax payers. This looks set to accelerate in 2013 and when it does, I’ll jump aboard the starship enterprise and get away – you and yer FG/PS buddies can stay on Noah’s Ark. Can’t wait to see Endas face when he realizes there are not enough tax payers left to make Ireland a viable entity – ill be watching on CNN or Fox News of course. Good luck to u

@scrap- Bon voyage.

Stop spouting nonsense

Cooperguy.
Did the rich get affected by the cuts in social welfare spending like the poor did?
No.
So do us all a favour and check your facts first, then you can “Stop spouting nonsense”.

Well said.

Pot kettle black.

Yeah becuase TheJournal is just full of government fanboys….

I get the feeling that the red thumbs come from the usual suspects. And they’ll probably red thumb this too. Oh the irony.

Tom,
Do you notice also that every thread descends into the exact same conversations?
I remember the comments section on here, used to be interesting. People used to post additional information to the article.
Now, if someone has a different opinion, they’re a troll, a leftie, a Gov party hack and so on and so on…
The comments section has become a parody. You can read a headline and know exactly who will comment and exactly what they will say.

There isn’t even any point in anyone outside of the usual suspects leaving a comment. The replies will only contain vitriol. Nothing of constructive value whatsoever.
It’s sad really. As I said, the comments section used to be great.

True colours show when a party poll goes up on this site. Massive support for Sinn Féin and ULA!

Danny, I noticed that a long time ago. I used to get vile abuse sent to my Facebook inbox from annonymous user names…but they strangely all had Sinn Fein in their “likes”. A few real name users sent utterly vile messages as well. These guys and girls are now the equivalent of the mad feckers you hear ranting in a pub…ah well…you just have to let them at it.

12 annonymous users on this thread alone, none engaging with the subject matter, all giving out…all with very similar writing styles…coincidence? :)

OK Tom, you posted 22 minutes ago,

“12 anonymous users on this thread alone, none engaging with the subject matter, all giving out…all with very similar writing styles…coincidence? :)”

I am here, i am not a member of a Political party, but yes, i did vote SF at the last election ( as many people wish they had since).

Give me any example of a Government Policy, that the anonymous people you refer to complain about, and that you want to defend. Any policy that attracts the ire of the anonymous, and i will answer on their behalf.
You defend it and I will, in all openness, answer why they feel sick at what the FFG/Labour coalition have inflicted upon the Irish people while leaving the wealthiest in our society laughing. Even the IMF challenged your party regarding the last budget. The IMF are not well known for being activists on behalf of the lower income families. They could not believe that the Government decided to target all the Tax revenue increases at the least well off in our society.
I am not anonymous. My facebook profile is there. I am not in the lower income threshold. I am one of those that can afford to pay more.

Please, please, please, ask me a straight question and i will answer it on behalf of the annonymous that you refer to.

I’m anon for a number of reasons I can’t go into now. I stick to the subject matter of the article as best I can. I try to think out my points of view so they are fair and accurate. So why do u say that nobody here who doesn’t use a name is off topic?

As someone posted here recently:
“Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.”
~ Oscar Wilde

Lol…I am sure you have many good reasons to post annonymously. I am sure all the annonymous abusive posters are all secret agents.
“The actions of men are the greatest interpretors of their thoughts.” John Locke.

I’m sure when I check back in a few months time the usual suspects will still be here and all the annonymous secret agents will be posting…

Did you miss the part where Kenny is going ahead paying the promissory note? So in his term of office, a check worth €30 billion to a zombie bank.

*Cheque

Just in case you missed my comment above Reg, i will repost it

Reg, damn you must be tired today, if you are going to argue with me, without researching your rebuttal.
Kenny is the third highest paid in Europe, and that is before he pays himself an extra 50,000 per year as a party leader.
I know you challenged me, as it is such an incredible statistic… but sadly, it is true…

Check out the link for yourself from yesterdays Indo.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/enda-kenny-is-still-third-bestpaid-leader-in-the-eu-3340256.html

It’s the President of the USA comparison that I have the problem with. I even hear it stated on TV and it goes unchallenged. It is not true.

Yes Kenny is paid too much for the PM of a small country like Ireland.

Great quote:

“I have always been able to live from my earnings as a politician,” said Mr Schroder, “and if the rewards are too low, a politician can always try some other career.”

Imagine that! Of course, our lot would be equally incapable in any other career.

Also, those figures don’t include pension provisions.

Reg, its like shooting fish in a barrell today. The President gets paid 350,000 dollars per year, which is the equivalent of 265,00 euro. He also gets a 33,000 euro per year expenses allowance. He gets a retirement salary of 145,000 euro per year allowance which does not increase with inflation etc.

Now compare that to Enda Kenny, or Eamonn Gilmore.
Kenny gets paid 200,000 euro per year. He also gets a party leader allowance of 50,000 euro per year. He also gets expenses in the region of 49,000 euro per year.
When he retires, he gets in the region of 150,000 euro per year, but also gets a TD salary if he choses to sit in the Dail of another 96,000 euro per year, along with is expenses after retirement of Taoiseach of approximately 30,000 per year. Kenny has volontarily given up any pension rights of his previous minister position and teaching position, but can and maybe will, start taking those pensions again after he loses his position as Taoiseach.
Now can you go and add all those numbers up, save me the bother and tell me who is better off.

Now lets do a real comparison …
There are 420 million Americans. The president is also responsible for a Budget that runs into the Trillions of dollars. He is without doubt, in control of the most powerful country in the world. He has a public service staff of over 23 million.
A like for like comparison to Enda Kenny and Gilmore….
Ireland has a population of approximately 5 million euro. We dont have any nuclear weapons.
Our total budget expenditure is approx 36 billion euro. He has a staff of 280 thousand, which is clearly neing mis-managed at the moment. Kennys staple answer to any hard questions, is that the Troika tell him what he has to do.
I must ask ….. do you think we get value for money with Enda Kenny and Eamonn Gilmore.

We’re talking about pay Cal. The US President earns $400k per year, not €350k. Something that is pretty easy to find out on the net. Kenny earns € 200k, still too much but it’s a big difference.

Reg, not meaning to be pedantic, he earns 350,000 dollars and has an allowance of 50,000 dollars for expenses. He does not get a salary of 400,000 dollars as you suggest.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepresidentandcabinet/a/presidentialpay.htm

It’s a tough job running a country regardless of its size.

Those comparisons aren’t adjusted for cost of living differences.

Secondly you fail to factor in the costs of running the US presidency?

How much does it cost to run the white house?

How much does his secret service detail cost?

How much does it cost to run Air Force One?

The amount of money spent on the US President far exceeds that spent on the Irish Taoiseach.

@David
One question:
How has Enda got the brass neck to go looking for a writedown on our debt when he is the 3rd best paid PM in Europe and our politicians wages and perks are also top of the pile

“The amount of money spent on the US President far exceeds that spent on the Irish Taoiseach.”

And rightly so as the leader of the free world. Leaders lead and are paid accordingly, endas not worth the loose change down the back of my sofa, or whatever Bosco puppets cost these days.

That is brilliant.
Perfectly placed in this thread.

Could add it to the terms and conditions of use for the Journal site…