Option One: Write off the debt in its entirety (Best Option for The People Of Ireland who are suffering to much ). For Once Europe has the option of giving us a break are our Government strong enough to demand it? if not we can demand it !!) do we have to return to famine conditions

This option involves the complete non-payment of the Promissory notes.
Although this may appear drastic, its impact could be minimal. The only
“loser” in this scenario is the ICB since the Promissory notes are owed solely
to that institution. However, the ICB, like any other Central Bank, but unlike
other institutions that would simply become insolvent if they incurred losses
on this scale, is able to absorb the losses it incurs on the Promissory notes
because it can simply create money. An institution that can create its own
money cannot go broke provided that the money it creates is accepted by
those who use it. Central Bank losses are only a notional concept. Taking this
approach would significantly reduce Ireland’s debt burden and, therefore,
increase the likelihood of rapid economic recovery.
However, this option is not without its pitfalls. Other Eurozone countries could
seek similar arrangements for their own indebted banks. If this arrangement
was carried out wholesale across the Eurozone it would lead to significant
Euro inflation. Moreover, such an approach would need approval from the
ECB. The ECB could disallow such a move if two thirds of its governing
council deems it to be contrary to the ECB’s objectives. Some may argue that
such a move would be contrary to the ECB’s objectives since it has the
potential to increase inflation, a deep-seated fear in the ECB. It could be
argued, however, that the risk of inflation would be minimal if Ireland was
given sole permission to take this action. Europe-wide political approval
would, in theory, also be required. Obtaining ECB and wider political approval
would not be easy but it is not impossible.

Option Two: Repay at a later date and over a longer period of time.
Ref http://www.jpmckenna.ie/McKenna-IBRC-Debt-Explained.pdf

If we follow option one instead of two as proposed by Noonan, we will not be smothered with enormous tax increase , property taxes (leaving people unable to bay their bills and feed their children) , rates (causing numerous Irish businesses to close down since this recession started and hence loss of jobs), deaths (suicides due to lack of seeing any hope for our future due to the pressure put on us by Europe)

Option One: Write off the debt in its entirety (Best Option for The People Of Ireland who are suffering to much ). For Once Europe has the option of giving us a break are our Government strong enough to demand it? if not we can demand it !!) do we have to return to famine conditions

This option involves the complete non-payment of the Promissory notes.
Although this may appear drastic, its impact could be minimal. The only
“loser” in this scenario is the ICB since the Promissory notes are owed solely
to that institution. However, the ICB, like any other Central Bank, but unlike
other institutions that would simply become insolvent if they incurred losses
on this scale, is able to absorb the losses it incurs on the Promissory notes
because it can simply create money. An institution that can create its own
money cannot go broke provided that the money it creates is accepted by
those who use it. Central Bank losses are only a notional concept. Taking this
approach would significantly reduce Ireland’s debt burden and, therefore,
increase the likelihood of rapid economic recovery.
However, this option is not without its pitfalls. Other Eurozone countries could
seek similar arrangements for their own indebted banks. If this arrangement
was carried out wholesale across the Eurozone it would lead to significant
Euro inflation. Moreover, such an approach would need approval from the
ECB. The ECB could disallow such a move if two thirds of its governing
council deems it to be contrary to the ECB’s objectives. Some may argue that
such a move would be contrary to the ECB’s objectives since it has the
potential to increase inflation, a deep-seated fear in the ECB. It could be
argued, however, that the risk of inflation would be minimal if Ireland was
given sole permission to take this action. Europe-wide political approval
would, in theory, also be required. Obtaining ECB and wider political approval
would not be easy but it is not impossible.

Option Two: Repay at a later date and over a longer period of time.
Ref http://www.jpmckenna.ie/McKenna-IBRC-Debt-Explained.pdf

Rob a longer more managable length of time

Jay- The same amount will still be repaid, where is the write downs the greeks got and why haven’t we got them? If we had jumped up and down like the greeks, we could’ve got these write downs and not bent over for longer punishments!

Steven are u actually that deluded that you think greece got a write down cause they jumped up and down … They got a huge writedown because they would have had no capability of paying it back and would have went bankrupt and put the euro in a downward spiral and they whole lot would have collapsed thats te only reason the got a writedown

Ive friends living in greece and i wouldnt swap our situatuon for theres in a million years. ..

Jay
The problem is that Stephen doesn’t want to understand. He has a different agenda and that involves the daily focused regurgitation of bile and nastiness directed at Government or leading Government figures. From the majority of his Postings it is clear that he has no understanding whatever of his subject but that doesn’t stop him on his multiple daily Extreme Left rants.

Rob, we never would have paid it back, we’d just have borrowed more money from the markets at a substantial interest rate. That’s where the savings are being made.

Nothing more than id expect ha

There’s a lot of us on right who disagree with FF FG Lab. The “left” by and large support monetarist bail outs.
If you’re happy with former Stalinists like Gilmore and co so be it.

Jay and Mark, plus many more FG supporters. Will be on cheerleading the big con, do you think peoiple being evicted, going hungry and freezing to death are signs we can repay a private debt too. FG/Labour will get their answer soon enough, the people will speak and you’ll go crawl under a rock!

Well said Stephen. Anyone supporting Fianna gael or labour at this stage are obviously deeply insane.

The only trouble state that got a deal better than ours in greece .. Do u really want the country to swap places with greece??

Its too early for you jay, back to your leaba. No mention at all of “swapping places” only a thought that we be given a much more favourable deal.

Tragically i think this inept government will continue to pander to their masters in europe and deliver nothing of true substance or change

So much for debt write off. Noonan’s out of his depth here. This government will say anything, to try and make it appear their actually trying to better our position. Enda Kenny made a statement last June virtually saying that our bank debt would be written off, and now the whole story’s completely changed. We can’t afford to have this crowd of complete incompetents in charge one day longer. They’re capable of doing damage that can never be repaired. How in gods name can a complete buffoon like Brian Hayes get within a hundred miles of negotiations in regards to something this important? God help us all, because if he’s the best man for the job, then we might as well throw in the towel right now.

You said we should get a more favourable deal simular to what other eu states got .. The only ine that got a more favourable deal is greece and i know being in greeces situation would suit u better as you would have alot more to winge about but im thankfull im not

Incorrect Jay. Theres 31 billion of promissory note ‘debt’ that is not yet sovereign. Noonan converted 3 billion of it into sovereign last April with a due date of 2025 when it will have 13 years interest accrues and will cost our kids 4.8 billion.

Wake up.

Werejammin

Show me evidence to back this up

Jay you are asking jammin for evidence why? were you under a rock all this time,if you dont know this kind of thing why are you making such a song and dance on the issue? its a fact the are asking our children and grandchildren to pay these debts that are not ours in the first place. brilliant piece on vincent brown last night by the guy from ballyhea bond holders he put it in words for all to understand.
imagine asking any one to pay their neighbours mortgage and when the protested come back and say to them we see your having trouble paying this guys debt so we are willing to let your kids and grand kids pay it for him.
see simple and should get your blood boiling if not I dont know !

When on this dis i ever agree with the bank debt am i happy we have to pay it ..of course not But whats your alternative ans what are the repercussions to defaulting on it ??? We would be in a worse state than greece

Rodrigo
You are appallingly ignorant on the subject of Negotiation Strategy and as someone who holds a Masters from Trinity College in the subject I would say that Mr Kenny and Mr Noonan have been playing an absolute blinder over the past two years. They have developed relationships at the highest levels and created sub groups of European Leaders and Finance Ministers in differing but critical fora and when someone like Chancellor Merkel banged her own drum for local political benefit our Taoiseach reacted immediately and bravely to challenge her and he clearly achieved a huge success with her publicly confirming same at a rapidly convened summit.
Our position is extremely complex and has now been divided into three separate sets of objectives which will make the elephant much easier to eat from a European perspective and all of the hard work being done by our Government is daily sniped at by people like you.
Quite clearly you want the Government To fail. Quite clearly you have your own agenda but loyalty to your own State isn’t on it. Quite clearly you describe our elected members of Government in the language of the Street or Yard bully. This makes you a very socially and intellectually unpleasant person.

Sutherland, maybe you should take yer head out of yer ‘Dear Leaders’ butt hole for a small while

Frank looking at your comments you show a distinct lack of understanding of how the country finances itself, “useless useless useless” on a story that will save our country billions shows that your true agenda (like many other commenters here) is to slag off anything the government does. I’m not a supporter of any political party but I find the attitude of turn everything/story negative sickening.

Tom I am well aware of how the country finances itself and lenghtening the time or repayment on a debt which was not ours in the first place isnot my idea of saving money. whats sickening is being lied to for the last 6 months by the government

Its correct. We’ve 42% of the banking crisis debt forced on us and are 1% of the population of Europe. This is solidarity Merkel style and why the leader of the Vichy, sorry Irish, government was awarded the European of the year award. Its Europe first for kenny. We just pay his wages, thats all.

Don’t bother red, jay is blinded by the rainbows coming out of noonans rear end. He’s happy to extend the repayment of debt that’s not his, pass it on to generations to come.

Yayyy FG whoop whoohooo FG

Rob in not happy with the bank debt i agree its not ours but FF SIGNED IT INTO SOVERGN and we have to deal with it If we spread it out to more manageable payment im happy with that start next stop is to reducing it

Ryan for the 100th time in not pro FG im just not anti goernment

Incorrect Jay. Theres 31 billion of promissory note ‘debt’ that is not yet sovereign. Noonan converted 3 billion of it into sovereign last April with a due date of 2025 when it will have 13 years interest accrues and will cost our kids 4.8 billion.

Wake up.

Show me evidence to back this up

Olde shoe business must be quiet today Jay

Back it up? It was reported all over the place the end of March last year, and torn asunder by every neutral economist out there. Do your homework Jay. Unless you’re contesting that the government can convert an IOU into a 13 year bond and sell it without it accruing interest. Maybe you’d like to explain to us as well who exactly would buy such a bond?

Were jammin What would your alternative to doing that in march be ???

Josh .. Im on holidays :-)

Jay
the alternative would be not to pay the bondholders and use the money to stimulate a domestic economy that is close to breaking

“Were jammin What would your alternative to doing that in march be ???”

My alternative would be to do what Fine Gael economic guru Peter Matthews suggested and push back the due date on the note. It can be pushed back 100 years without causing a credit event in europe.

Frank. Where would we get the 20billion deficit money from if we burn the bondholders?? From u or under a few matresses

Werjammin

Your sugessting push it back a hundred years ? So our great great grandchildren an deal wit it

“Werjammin

Your sugessting push it back a hundred years ? So our great great grandchildren an deal wit it”

It would not accrue interest as its an IOU. So, it will still be 3 billion and we will have had 100 years of inflation. Use the loaf jay, €1 million is nothing to the exchequer now, but in 1912 it was a far bigger deal, yes?? Works the other way as well.

You can push it out 200 years, or a thousand years, makes no difference. You can also clear it in 50 years if the economy is in better shape.

If only it was as simple as you make it out to be

Explain how its not Jay…….

Are you saying your beloved Fine Gaels banking expert got it wrong?

the problem Jay,
is that the politicians of today make the bank executives of tomorrow and they just don’t want to rock the boat

Yeah in saying FG. Got it wrong it shouldnt be pushed away for 100 years

Frank the money we would save wouldnt cover the countries deficit for 3 years

Jay
thats not the point, its the principle, we are hiding europes dirty little secret and we are being screwed because of it

You claimed its not that simple Jay, can you explain to us why?

Its not that simple because europe wouldnt agree to the 100 year down te road terms

And what entity in Europe would stop it, and why?

@Frank “the alternative would be not to pay the bondholders and use the money to stimulate a domestic economy that is close to breaking” Use what money Frank ????????????????????? if you don’t pay the bondholders where are you going to get money, your going to use your magic wand again I suppose, Try and live in reality Frank

tom we are due to pay 5.7 billion this year from the public purse strings and even high ranking members of the government are advocating not paying it including peter matthews, the one fine gael td who is qualified to speak on the matter
there is no magic wand but there are magic letters and if you look below at coddlers comment you will understand why we have a case to argue

David McWilliams Facebook status ;
Morning. Woke up to a blizzard of spin regarding Ireland’s debts. Lets cut to the chase. We need and should demand debt relief or debt mutualisation in order to bequeath next generation with less overall debt. What we are cheerleading this morning is clumsy, creditor driven, maturity extentions to facilitate more borrowing next year and lumber next generation with yet more overall debt. Robbing from tomorrow not to pay for today, but to pay for yesterday!

Don’t hold your breath remember last time he said this it cost us more…

They will examine, study, talk, discuss, negotiate and debate, at the end of the process they will say “you borrowed the money, you pay it back”.
We might extend the term by a few years if you agree to be good little Europeans and not riot like Greece.

Grand, the kids can pay for the banking debt and us running 7+ years of deficits (it’s payback for passing their referendum – cutting the children’s allowance and education budgets was not enough).

They said “examine”, so I think the jury is still out

@gis,I refer to my above comment again,its not going to happen

Noonan is a bilderburg and so is bill gates two dangerous men love to know what they are up to

You mean keep us in the FF/bank debt for longer…..

Looks like Michael Noonan is trying to lower our expectations. We should be getting a partial write off of at least 50% for the deal to mean anything. This is the responsibility of the ECB as well as Ireland.

So…are you gonna enlighten us or just troll here with name calling?

Actually Dermot you are showing yourself to fit the profile of troll, everything is bad news, (unless it concerns Sinn Fein) Attack everyone who says anything postive…….troll yourself

Excuse me…who are you?…I don’t remember asking you anything so kindly f**k off.

I didn’t realise I needed your permission, F**k off yourself bullyboy, typical bully actually, great at dishing it out but not very good at taking it. try doing a little reading or something to broaden your knowledge cos you’re obviously a little lacking in that department

Hhahahahahaha, jog on.

Say nothing till you here more

*hear

Living in cloud cuckoo land there Cian just like your leaders, deluded, mesmerised and out of their depth.

Hat’s off for slowing down recovery? They are agreeing to examine, they have not confirmed anything yet.

*our leaders

Yeah Hats off for lying to every Irish citizen just to get elected.
Hats off for not taking any pain themselves.
Hats off for been the self serving greedy liars just like the last bunch.
Hats off for having massive pay packets and expense accounts and massive pensions to look forward too, while the rest of us suffer
Hats off my arse, are you MAD

Hats off to a stupid comment Cian. FG have done nothing thus far to ease the debt put on the shoulders of the Irish people. Debt that DOES NOT BELONG TO US! Paddy pays his way says the ginger tosser.

Question is who do we vote for next? These clowns again? The ones in power previously who ruined us? or do we give SF a go?

Ryan ive figured out that clearly no matter what the government do or say you will never ever see any sort of positive even a small positive

Bit Sad really

I voted for SF last time, I will be again.

And jay I think no matter what the government do (or not as the case may be) you’ll still think the sun shines out if their ar$e. Pathetic really.

Im not pro FG im just not so anti government that i cant see positive work they do. This is positive more needs to be done i agree but this os why its a 4 year term .. Ill reserve my negitive judgment for the end if their term

Was he not being Sarcastic…?

Jay
Fianna fail sold this country to the highest bidder and Fine Gael are now the collection agents for that bidder.
We have been sold out by our politicians so they can keep the gravy train running

Frank ur right FF did sell the country and it would be left to the next government in power to atempt to fix it.. There is no quick fix to this problem its not as cut an shut as just telling europe were not paying it back the repercussions are to risky I think FG could be doing a better job than they currently are but i dont think they are doin the desasterois job you and ryan claim they are ….

Who do you suggest are better for the job that FG out of the current pot to choose from ??

Jay 2 things

The triochet letters, where are they, and why has noonan not put them on the table.
Its hard to negociate debt writedown when you are earning more than the people you are negociating with.

At this moment in time i think anyone would be better

I agree the TDS are overpaid but even if we made them work for free the 20billion deficit we ran in 2012 would still be an unmanagable figure … And you still havent answered my question who do you want to replace them ??? If you dont have a valid responce to that then really you dont have much of an arguement

Explain how this will slow down recovery ?

That last comment was directed at gerry

Jay so really what your saying is that even though this government are completely incompetent and out of their depth we should keep them in because there is no one to replace them
I don’t agree,
Ireland should have had a national government put in place the weekend of the bank crisis.
There is no party strong enough sort out this mess but the cancer that is civil war politics says otherwise.
we have highly intelligent people in this country who understand whats going on, but to our politicians its all about party before country.
A question for you, why is noonan not producing the triochet letters?

I never said they are incapable of doing their job And i do think if there is no better alternative you stick woth the beat of what we have

Those letters like any government letters are not for public viewing its the governments right to do as they see fit with them

@ Jay
‘Im not pro FG ‘ That’s a number of times you’ve denied them in this thread alone. maybe you’re just a FG wannabe

Josh

No om just a realist i dont see a negative in everything the government do

sums it up jay
stick to what you know

Those letters like any government letters are not for public viewing its the governments right to do as they see fit with them.
i cant believe you just said that. they are of national interest to the people of this country and IF we have to pay back the debts of gamblers

we bloody well have the right to see these letters

We will see them when the information becomes public in 30 years … Im not happy that we wont see them untill then buts that the system thats in place

Yes in thirty years when noonan is dead and gone and our kids are the slaves of europe
I have no problem paying for the wreckless years of the housing boom jay but what i will not pay is the gambling debts of 100 or so individuals

The system is 30 year ans always has been i dont disagree that. That time frame is there so no accountability can e held but the system ist a new system its been there a long time and you cant expect to just pick and choose information out as you please or as you see fit … The whole system should be reduced to 5 or 10 years

The system is 30 year ans always has been i dont disagree that. That time frame is there so no accountability can e held but the system ist a new system its been there a long time and you cant expect to just pick and choose information out as you please or as you see fit … The whole system should be reduced to 5 or 10 years

Its a cover up jay and we all know it
where is the banking enquiry?
we are being sold down the river

The circus is leaving town, don’t be the lonely clown left behind.

fair play to ya for believing that go lie down before you hurt yourself