If there’s one country in Europe you can get away will ripping off an entire population, that’s Ireland.

I wonder will it take them another 800 years to realise it this time.

Your Irish William

I Wouldn’t call him Irish!

Ulster is a province in Ireland. Maybe plastic Brit……..

That sounds like something everybody would enjoy.

And a new party will help how? Like I said yesterday:

FF, FG, Lab, SF, SWP, Independent, Monster Raving Loony Party, It just doesn’t matter – whomever you elect into office is going to do exactly the same things. They will break their election promises equally quickly, they will overclaim expenses and take the same enormous amount of time off and you will pay exactly the same pension contributions towards their comfortable retirement after their term ends. And all the while, the Dail will remain as ineffectual a talking shop as the Seanad has become.

The only way this is ever going to change is if the actual system itself is changed so that the electorate can have a binding vote on policy issues at will

So unless some new party does that, all they’ll stand for is giving us a new name to say when listing off the politicians who abandoned their pre-election positions on being elected.

Either you have a revolution and strip down everything and restart from scratch, which won’t happen, or you have the same old parties doing the same old things in roughly the same old ways, which probably will happen, or you have some new thinking from a new party that has at the least the opportunity to introduce change, which could happen.

“It just doesn’t matter – whomever you elect into office is going to do exactly the same things”

It does matter who you vote for, if nothing else a new party might get people enthused about their own country again.

The PDs were a new party as I recall…

The pattern’s just going to be the same no matter whom you elect because it’s a systemic problem and unless you fix that system, you won’t get any real change.

“unless you fix that system, you won’t get any real change”

Unless you get change you won’t be able to fix that system.

It’s the chicken and the egg all over again.

Mark do you suggest we just shrug our shoulders and not seek change?

I just suggest that you not think that changing the names will change the system Norman.

Mark never suggested seeking a name change,never has a more opportune time presented itself for real change.We can stop voting for the same group think idiots,or put in people who remember who their employers are and remain answerable to them.A system would be a step in the right direction.

Sorry meant to say a recall system similiar to what they have in the states.

My point Norman, was that we have no legal mechanism by which those you elect remain answerable to you except at the next election, which is sufficiently far away as to be useless for specific policy issues like, say, guaranteeing bank bondholders.

Until that changes, all of this is on the level of bread and circuses.

Is it not time we sought it?

Sure. But this isn’t how you seek it.
This is like fighting fire with flammable liquids. You might dampen the fire for a short time, but all you’ve done in the longer run is feed the fire.

One way to change the system and bring in accountability would be to rip it down and start again – Which is not going to happen

The other way is to bring in a new raft of politicians who would be prepared to reform the system.

If we take the second way then the time to start working towards that is not when the next election process starts. The time to start something like that is long before the next election. How about now? Why not start now?

This isn’t rocket science.

well said mark.i think a swiss style of direct democracy is badly needed in this country.check out direct democracy ireland.its a starting point

@ Graham. This was included in the original (1922) constitution, but circumvented by Fianna Fail (who else).

“As originally adopted the constitution contained (in Articles 47, 48 and 50) innovative provisions for direct democracy but, owing to constitutional amendments, these provisions were never permitted to come into effect. The provisions stated that the referendum and initiative would operate on the same franchise as the Dáil; this was universal suffrage beginning at the age of 21. The constitution provided for three forms of direct democracy:

Constitutional referendum: After an initial period all constitutional amendments would be subject to a mandatory, binding referendum. An amendment would not be deemed to have been passed unless at least a majority of registered voters participated in the referendum and the votes in favour were equal to either: (1) a majority of all eligible voters, or (2) a two-thirds majority of votes cast. This provision was stricter than the modern Constitution of Ireland, which merely requires a majority of votes cast.
Veto of legislation: Once a bill had been approved by both houses of the Oireachtas (or just by the Dáil, if it had overridden the Senate) its enactment into law could be suspended if, within seven days, either a majority of the Senate or 40% of all members of the Dáil so requested. There would then be a further period of ninety days within which either 5% of all registered voters, or a 60% majority in the Senate, could demand a referendum on the bill. The referendum would be decided by a majority of votes cast. If rejected the bill would not become law. These provisions did not apply to money bills or bills declared by both houses to be “necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health or safety”.
Initiative: Ordinary citizens would have the right, through an initiative process, to draft both constitutional amendments and ordinary laws, and insist that they be submitted to a referendum. The constitution provided a general frame-work for how the initiative would work, empowering the Oireachtas to fill in the details with legislation. It required that a proposal could be initiated by a petition of 50,000 registered voters. Once initiated a proposal would be referred to the Oireachtas, but if the Oireachtas did not adopt the law it would be obliged to submit it to a binding referendum. The constitution gave the Oireachtas two years to adopt a law allowing voters to introduce initiatives. However after this time voters had power to force the issue. This is because the initiative process itself could then by made the subject of an initiative. After two years the introduction of an initiative process would be put to a referendum if demanded by a petition of not less than 75,000 voters on the register (not more than fifteen thousand of whom could be voters in any one constituency).”

Wikipedia, Irish Free State Constitution

I’ll sign up today. Hell, I’d even put myself forward as a candidate. We need to replace 90% of the Daill if we are ever going to get a proper change. I’m so mad after seeing that graphic. Why are we taking this shit day after day?

@sean yes i had heard about that before & makes you wonder why our so called “leaders” fear direct democracy so much.fianna fail circumventing it speaks volumes about our so called democracy

Like you said Graham, it has worked well in Switzerland. Iceland, also, is heading in this direction.

Yes we do need a glimmer of light. Here’s hoping. That goon, Phil Hogan ( for example ), has no problem trying to bully the Irish nation yet a coward in office to stand up for the Irish nation on the EU stage.

I’m in

If they start a party,a potential candidate in my area already has my vote.Bring it on lads.

Sadly such is the system it is quite probable that regardless of who established a new party, the inevitable compromises and constraints required to ascend to Government in the current system dictate that it would not be much different. I have admiration for Stephen Donnelly but he himself stated that a YES vote in the last Treaty was the better option, an implicit part of agreeing to hit debt ratios in the Treaty was the acceptance of the legitimacy of the debt, you can’t agree to hit certain debt/income ratios without accepting the debt. Few politicians would have stood up to the EU because to do so would require a huge and immediate reduction in spending, the easier option is to play ball and continue living on borrowed money. To be fair to Fine Gael, they did inherit the problem with most hands tied behind their back, obligations and commitments as unjust and unsustainable as they were, already in place. Fine Gael could have refused to commit to the FF deals as enthusiastically as they did, alot of the establishment in Ireland have preserved their incomes, professionals, public servants, with the EU deal and they were never going to take an income hit to make a stand against the unfairness of the EU deal.

We need it badly. We’re f****d with this crowd.

How about we ensure this new party’s TD’s have actual qualifications, like a Finance Minister having 3rd level proof that he can add.

We have gutless, spineless, clueless & ball less politicians here. Don’t hold your breath, Mark. They are shameful.

What did it taste like?

Terry … it would be better to send it to all German, Spanish, Italian and French MPs and MEPs … the public and some MPs don’t realise the extent of our bank guarantee … We need their support for a change in the bank bailout … Forward to ECB head men also

They already know. So long as their puppet government runs Ireland why should they care?

Rabbit,

I draw your attention to my use of the question mark (?), this indicates that I am asking a question so as to determine whether or not Mary’s claim that she is in no way complicit in profiting from the previous government’s profligacy is true.

Given the wide reaching spending programmes during those years I’m very surprised to encounter someone who gained nothing from them whatsoever, hence my question.

@ Robert – so “someone” was taking advantage of unsustainable levels of cheap credit, but it clearly wasn’t anyone here or anyone we know. So who and where are these bogeymen, then. Face facts, it was us, the people of this country. Passing the buck escalated this problem to the ridiculous levels they’re now at, continuing to pass the buck isn’t going to save us. Take responsibility. The very few people who spoke out against overspending during the boom were promptly told to shut up and take their doom and gloom elsewhere, or in the case of certain academic economists ( whom I can’t name here but a quick Google search with relevant terms and the name of a south Dublin suburbs based University will appease the curious ) were threatened with job loss and legal action by their president. Are you really so squeaky-clean in relation to all of this?

ed you hit the nail on the head.until everyone can see through the curtain and realise where the real power lies then we may as well be pissing in the wind.have a read of g edward griffins the creature from jeckyl island.a must read for everyone

ed you hit the nail on the head.until everyone can see through the curtain and realise where the real power lies then we may as well be p*ssin the wind.have a read of g edward griffins the creature from jeckyl island.a must read for everyone

some of us are taking action Robert and probably many here too. I see people who were never active in resisting the government who are now taking an active part by leafleting and protesting on the streets. Yes its very slow and the Irish are so laid back but I believe when they do snap (and they will) it wouldn’t be wishing on this government. This country fought for independence form the greatest empire in the world with sticks and shovels and they won (debatable whether completely won or not). When the irish decide to fully to resist i believe they will because they have done so in past and not so long ago so all I am saying is there is hope there.

Leafleting and protesting aren’t worth a shite. Peaceful non-compliance is the only way. Stop obeying unjust statues. Stop paying banks. If people stand together we have power over these crooks. Politics will change nothing.

Mary I did the very same as you, Never let a bill go and worked all my life over 30 years and then applied for benefit as I am not out of work and was turned down for a PRSI based payment. Now you tell me. What was I paying PRSI for all these years.

meant to say NOW out of work, sorry

Fair play to you then Mary, I tip my hat towards you in respect to your rarity value if nothing else.

“why didnt they borrow it themselves”

It was banks borrowing from banks that created the ponzi scheme that caused the crash.

Damocles not everyone knows what a Ponzi scheme is or was. I had to google it myself. I suppose its another word we have to learn for being screwed.

“It is not my fault that the country is in so much financial difficulty.”

Did you enjoy any profligate spending by the government during the tiger years? Did you complain about the waste then?

Damo, contrary to popular belief not everyone went mad or partied hard especially the average joe! Hard times are here and people are genuinely concerned for the future. How can you simply dismiss this fact?

Mary believe me when I say I know how you feel. Chin up the day will soon come when people can’t take anymore.

Clearly you are joking, right?

Ah the true Patriots reach for the gun and the bullet! A nation once again! Only this time with a small n nnnnnnnnnnnnnnh

Lol shut up ya clown

Michael, so you would have Ireland become like north Korea! Your talking shite!!!

And the alternative was?

Those fools were desperate for change and those parties promised that. Its a case of catch me once etc.
Hindsight is a great thing, but we all forgot one major thing at the last election, that the current government parties were cheerleading the last crowd and urging greater recklessness.
We will get another chance, in 3 years if we wait, and sooner if we take to the streets.
Will we have the balls to vote for real change, I for one, dont think so.

The next election ha wait and see. half of them won’t even vote. Isn’t that a depressing thought.

No, it doesn’t have anything to do with that. Even if that were true you’d imagine that the bailout cost would be proportional to head of population. This picture shows how much more expensive our “bailout” is. Why?

(and btw the population of Iceland is just over 300,000 people)