I still can’t believe this is happening. It’s utterly insane!!!

We need to start all over again and have a means tested Payment…….end of….move on.

Wow! i thought they stopped that. Do they seriously still do that? omg

You have to under EU law. Anyway, if their parents are paying tax here it is only fair we pay childrens allowance to them. Unless you want to give incentives to bring more children here?

EU ruling mark nothing to do with Ireland. Also emigrants working here longer than 10 years will be entitled to the irish oap even if they return to their own country. Its EU law.

Agree 100% but the problem is that it will be tackled in a way that the couple on 30K will lose out and not the couple on 100K

Child benefit brews to benefit the child not the parents regardless of parents earnings. This needs to be done via childcare and tax breaks etc.. The couple earning 100k is probably paying 50k in income tax and 800 a month in daycare for each young child.
That cost often prevents both parents from working as they would be at a loss… So the economy and society loses.

Why should a working family who pay thousands in taxes subsidise those with a rake load of kids who’ve never worked a day in their lives?

It should be scrapped altogether and the money spent on school dinners program.

This would provide employment and benefit the poorest most

Bilbo. I would have to pay 800 per month per child if I was working fulltime. Double my mortgage in fact. My job was cut to 20 hours per week last summer. For 3 days per week with one child in after school and one starting Montessori my fees are 850 per month. And I earn less than 20,000 per year with me the only adult in the house. I’m terrified of any cuts that will affect me.

that’s my point Louise, if there was a subsidised childcare system, or tax credits from your outgoings it would solve your problem, and similar problems for higher earners.. The only people it wouldn’t benefit is the ones who have 10 kids and as many years unemployment and are better off with the levels of social aid they get than any tax payer…

Yes hit the poor,blame them for all your mistakes,the banks,NAMA,the super rich are untouchable cos yees are cowards…

Lol better targeted ha ha they really think we are thick thick thick

@Anel – And they’d be right. We voted for FG, didn’t we?

Factually incorrect statement Tim. Just look at the UK

Hear Hear Matt! There should be a limit on the amount of years a person can continually bleed the system dry without working a single f*cken day! I know some losers who ad ample opportunity to work even during the boom but the lazy b*stards refused! Also there should be a law forcing everyone who is on the dole to show proof of jobs they applied for. I know there’s not a lot of jobs out there I’ll agree but this comment is directed at bums who’ve never worked a day in their lives and are scabbing your and my taxes!

P.S. Since this bunch of Clowns took over the Regional Bundestag Office in Dublin (Dail), unemployment has gone up from 14% to 14.9%, this figure does not take into account those on FAS or similar courses, those hundreds of thousands who have emigrated, and those who are not entitled to claim (e.g. Self Employed etc)…!!!

Or ppl on week on week off!! U hit the nail on the head with everything!!

Here bloody here..i wld have taken one long time ago.

The IMF is another costly bureacratic organisation the world could do without.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/05/20/should-we-abolish-the-imf/

The Irish public rubber stamped this project with the last referendum, there’s no stopping them now!
These people know EXACTLY what they are doing, there’s no ignorance here at all; they’re not incompetent, they’re not lacking in vision, they are not blissfully unaware of what people are going through – they know, they just don’t care. Their agenda is NOT your agenda. It’s not their job to sort out the country, it’s their job to take what they can for as long as we let them. They have no interest in resolving any of Ireland’s problems. Surely that must be completely obvious by now, I would think so, but apparently not.

Why would you feel a foreigner should be entitled to something over an irish person?
No irish person goes to Australia, USA, NZ etc and gets any welfare and rightly so.

of course people work the system and always will, they lie through their teeth, but i have 2 kids , lost my job, on single parents, i try to pay my mortgage, mortgage insurance and house insurance, elec and i have 7 euro left, i rely on child benefit for food, and petrol to get my kids to school, as their is no room in school in my town, no buses to school which is ten miles away, so do that twice a day its 40 miles , so take my petrol , insurance and tax out of that and you can see how much we have even for food, i apply for jobs and mostly hear nothing back, the only jobs around town are ce scheme to get you off the dole, and they hire someone else through ce scheme again, its moving around how they spend money ce to me is same as dole, i do volunteer work to pass my days, visiting elderly as they have so many cut backs and see no one some days, and on wkends can go to shop for them, sad but its reality, i guess the more kids you have you get more money, my son is 19 and out of work and i cant afford college, so his depending on me, and my daughter doiing her leaving which reminds me i have to come up with that money also for her to sit her exam,, and buy mock papers, and get to school at all the different times of the exams,, life is good when your working but one has no idea how hard it is to be out of work, and no work coming either, they talk about long term, any company leaves here after 10 years as there benefits run out and have to pay tax, they do a big extension government supplement new machinery and then they export it to their new factories,,, thats life in ireland, and not changing anytime soon, glad you have a good life and a job, but others try and try and go further in debt and do not have a good life living off the government, which i have paid tax for over 25 years, this is my first time unemployed and i am not happy

Tommy C I dont understand your answer to my post, was I saying foreigner should have more than Irish? I was merely describing situation how social money are missused.

Yes. This country is virtually Communist.
People who work are no better off than people who don’t.
And now child allowance cut. God forbid the working man would get any benefit whatsoever from this state that seems to exist primarily to service bank-debt. Ireland Inc me ar*se.

Jackie Crowe,

Your plight is representative of the corporate greed endorsed by Fine Gael with tax breaks for the mega rich. They have created the most unfair and unjust society in Ireland’s history. The gap between rich and poor is now widened to a record (as recent research pointed out). I made the mistake of voting for FG once, I will not be fooled again. Next time, I will be voting for SF.

Here Here Paul!

Not in this country unfortunately….. We lost our fighting spirit 100 years ago I’m afraid.

The IMF recommends ”steep” property taxes to be rolled out initially. So glad I did not register, phew!

My friend used to live with an Iranian lad who was an asylum seeker. He was working while claiming asylum but he wasnt entitled to work for whatever reason. He went home to Iran once a year (now remember he was claiming asylum here!). He left Ireland for germany last December and hes still claiming here plus getting €400 every 3 months from DCC for whatever reason. She reported him and nothing was done about him! He used to laugh at the system in Ireland and rightly so! Its ridiculous!

So the rent I pay to DCC is being handed over to someone who doesnt even live here. I am emailing DCC about first thing tomorrow morning to find out what this payment is and why it is being paid.

Only a matter of time before people started blaming immigrants. Do you have evidence of these people NEVER working or is it just off the top of your head like most anti-immigration peoples opinion.

Antoin

I dont blame foreign Nationals. I blame the Irish Government

It’s fair to say there is just as many Irish that have no intention of working . Explain to me how somebody is unemployed for 20 years in 1997 at a time in Ireland when anybody who wanted to work was working . I’m not including people on long term disability .
I agree that immigrants are also at fault when they abuse the system but look closer to home as well !

I don’t think that people can claim the dole here unless they have worked here for a minimum period. If they have worked here and have lost their job then they are untitled to claim just like everyone else.

I find these comments laughable – they come out every so often…..

It allows people to make assumptions that you will at some point in the future be involved in a far right elitist group. Maybe you should try to look at pros and cons of such a move?

The right to travel for work within the EU is protected under EU law. This is similar for immigrants anywhere within the EU and also applies to social welfare payments.

Maybe there is another way to address this? Maybe the social welfare system needs to be compared to other states to see if we are encouraging people to come here to claim through higher rates or a system which may allow people to abuse it through procedures of entry to the system?
The fact that people need to collect every week now made a significant difference when that was introduced (rather than payment to bank account).

A significant con to cutting off with no other option considered is that people simply have no money. With no money, what do you expect people to do? Do they have grounds for appeal? What do they live on while waiting for their appeal?
If they end up staying with no money – this will likely lead to crime. Would you be happy with this outcome?

@reg I’m not entirely sure how it works but last year when I had to go down to the social welfare office there was a woman there who had to bring her son with her to translate as she could barely speak a word of english even though shes lived here 18 years and always been on social welfare since she arrived.

@Sinead, seems a bit mad alright. How many Irish people were in the queue that haven’t worked for 18 years?

Reg, yes they can. Look at all the Roma on welfare. Its unlikely they have ever worked a day in their lives. More needs to be done to deport them and actually imprison them when they break the law.

It was about 4% unemployment during the property bubble. Now it’s 14%.
So the extra 10% are just foreign wasters who never worked a day in their lives?

Does not quite add up.

Completely idiotic point! If you actually knew anything about what you were talking about you’d know to be able to extract money from the social welfare system, you have to have contributed to the tax system in the first place. You can’t just move to Ireland and start claiming the dole.

I find it weird how people can be on the dole so long. Having needed to claim not so long ago I was told that I could claim for 312 days and no longer!!! So how are people claiming it years???

I heard Aussies saying the same about ur nation. ;-)

Irish people stay on the dole with no intension of working too.
Tim it’s really expensive to process and pipe water to homes. I don’t know where you get the idea that it’s cheap.

Why should people who pay more tax than most people be forced to reduce their fees. . . oh sorry just so you can get a cheaper deal.

I’m sure the builders, mechanics and plumbers weren’t reducing their fees back in the tiger days. .

Regulation regulation regulation that’s your answer to everything. How about not regulating the amount of doctors in the country and the price might come down.

I don’t really care if every TDs salary is slashed to zero. But if you think it would sort out an 18 billion budget defict then you’re dreaming.

I wish that were true, we said that the last 3 times, we’re gonna roll over and take it, just like we always do!

Well I’m ready for the protests I for one will not be taking this one lying down!!!!! I really hope I won’t be standing at the Dail alone :-(

I hope people are now reflecting on the consequence of electing Fine Gael.

I hope people are now reflecting on the consequence of electing Labour.

You think children of someone on 200k are the weakest in society? Think they need child support?

Means testing of benefits is simply common sense. If there is a finite pool of money available then it needs to go to the ones who actually need it as opposed to just spreading across everyone like it is now.

You are dead right but we do not outside forces telling us what we should do, alot of bright people in this country , the problem is we have a bunch of shills in government…..just look Dick Roche he got a job for 200,000 a year with a lobbying company in Europe, a little thank for selling the Irish people out……we are not all stupid !!

Well said girl… and congrats on the soon to be new addition. It’s very worrying and upsetting enough trying to figure out how to keep the roof over your head and pay child care and basically keep it all together etc without watching others around you that openly milk the system dry and laughing at people trying to do things rite grrrr don’t get me started I know a fair few myself and their only too happy to tell me how they do it. They totally see the system as their enemy and it’s the “sod them” attitude that gets me.
Sorry for the rant I’ll go now lol

Your so right Siobeli! The harder you work, the less money you have! I often think wouldn’t it be great for us all to be at home all day with our kids and the only thing we have to worry about is how we’ll spend our benefit cash-when everything else is paid for by the state!-rent, fuel allowance, GP visits, childcare. Bizarre situation in this country that you have to earn above 40k a year salary to make it worth your while working, when if you have 3+ kids and both parents out of work, you have more disposable income and the State supports this nonsense!!

They live in a world of denial – to them, it’s to feather their own nest egg.

40% of the money spent on social welfare and public sector pay is being borrowed from the EU and IMF. Most of Ireland’s debts are from such borrowing. And guess what, the EU and the IMF don’t want to keep lending that much money to us.

Neil,

30% of our debt is being given to bondholders of defunct banks. Clearly unsustainable…

Niel complete BS we had a surplus going into this ,We only needed a bailout because a bunch of bought and paid for politicians agreed to cover there mates banking debts.Without that we would have needed some austerity, and would have remained in the bond markets for borrowing .

Jeff, even we were not borrowing from the troika then we’d be be borrowing from the bond markets. And be under the same pressure to get the budget deficit under control that Spain have.

How much of our 18 billion budget deficit is because of the bank debts? Shag all of it.

If you think writing off the bank debts tomorrow would magic away budget defict,or allow us to maintain an even bigger budget deficit then you’re dreaming too.

Unless you’ve got someone lined up to lend us money besides the troika and the bind markets then we are going to jump to their tune. And that tune does not involve borrowing to pay an incredible 40% of government spending.

And Jeff, the reason we had a budget surplus is because of the massive unsustainable property bubble which was making lots of easy taxes for the government. Exactly the same bubble that screwed the banks who were lending the money that eventually made its way to the government in taxes.

If you think we could have railed in the bank lending and yet still have financed the same level of government spending then you need to explain where that extra money would have come from.

Neil,

That deficit you mention can be reduced by:

1) Axing the promissory note and bondholder payments = 30% less deficit

2) Cutting public sector pay & pensions by a further 10% = 15% less deficit

3) Introduce progressive taxes on capital gains and dividends = 5% less deficit

5) Introduce a third band of income tax on earnings above 80K = 20% less deficit

4) Introduce a wealth tax = 10% less deficit

5) Abolish tax breaks to corporations and businesses (e.g. no sales tax on purchasing a company car) = +/- 6% less deficit

6) Abolish tax-haven breaks and increase corporation tax from 12.5% to 16% = 9% less deficit

The remaining 5% is discretionary because it would be within the mandated limit under EU rules.

Tim, those Sinn Fein plans would be great for running the Googles and the Intels out of Ireland. And while we all know Sinn Fein don’t like multinationals much, it’s one of the few hopes we have of growing the economy that we have a good export sector.
And we are not spending 5 or 6 billion on bank debts a year, it’s way less than that.
And good luck with point 2.

Tim, what are you talking about saying that companies have a tax break on buying company cars? They pay full VAT and VRT like everyone else.

money is also borrowed to pay INFLATED salaries and PENSIONS .Maybe we should cut those

Neil,

I’m tired of hearing the doomsday conspiracy theories about companies relocating elsewhere. That hasn’t happened even in countries that adopted my above recommendations. Do you just buy anything Fine Gael throws at you without questioning it? Are you REALLY that naive to think that companies would uproot their 1 billion Euro plant in Leixlip just because of a modest increase in taxes?

Even with the added advantage of a high-skilled, English speaking workforce, there is no relocation risk because these companies have to deal with less bureaucracy in Ireland than ANYWHERE else in Europe. FACT: Ireland remains fifth most free market in the world.

Your politicized point is irrelevant. I am not a Sinn Fein candidate. However, I will be voting for them in the next general election having mistakenly voted FG in 2011 on the basis of lies.

Faceless Man,

Any corporation/business gets a sales tax rebate on a new car purchased/imported for the purpose of their business. Also, they get to pay less annual road tax on business vehicles that are classed as ”commercial vehicles” than ordinary people. That’s two loopholes that can be targeted in the Budget.

Tim, I’ve over 15 yrs experience in the motor trade and there is no mechanism for tax rebate on company cars. You haven’t a clue what you’re talking about so please don’t pass off your opinions as fact. VAT can be reclaimed off a commercial vehicle only, by any VAT registered person. These vehicles are subject to road tax at a commercial rate which is actually higher than band a or b road tax which applies to the vast majority of new cars sold. Commercial vehicle sales collapsed in 2009 so raising tax in these would yield nominal returns and only serve to raise the cost of doing business. Fleet business makes up a significant percentage of new car sales which are liable to double taxation with both VRT and VAT making up on average 40% of the sale price.

Faceless Man,

Tired feathering your own nest egg? Tired lying? Speaking a partner who owns a medium business and happens to know a lot more than you and your parlor tricks:

At present, any corporation/business can purchase a company vehicle without paying it’s full value (unlike an ordinary customer). The tax gets written-off for the corporation/business. So in other words, they avoid paying any sales tax on a new vehicle. Yes, a significant tax break.

His second point is irrelevant and moot – a ”fixed” commercial tax rate for company vehicles means that I can buy a truck and yet pay just 300 Euro a year on ‘commercial tax’. If an ordinary person owns such a vehicle, they must pay in the region of 700 – 1500 Euro annual private tax.

Tim would you like to address the facts rather than just making baseless personal attacks?

What you are saying about avoiding paying tax breaks is simply not true. A company may depreciate a vehicle on
It’s accounts over a period of years but this would be the same for any other capital item it owns.

The final purchase price of a vehicle depends on the negotiating skill and power of the buyer be they private or business, a company buying a number of vehicles may be able to negotiate a larger discount but this again would have a nominal effect on VAT and none on VRT.

Commercial vehicles do attract a flat rate commercial tax. In the case of small vans this is often more than they would attract if they were taxed privately. HGVs taxed on carbon would attract it at a higher rate if it were calculated this way but this year there has been only a few hundred HGV sales so no potential at all to increase revenue meaningfully.

Sally how could a couple earning a combined income of 100k be as reliant on child benefit as a single income family of 30k? >> 100k – 30k = 70k…. which is 40k more than the single family income of 30k… simple maths!
Also, childcare fees have reduced quite a bit since the bubble burst and anyone paying 2500 per month for the care of 2 children really needs to shop around and find a cheaper childcare provider. The trouble is that people don’t seem to understand the divide between the family who has been affected by the recession by way of less disposable income and the family who has been affected in such a way that they are now living in poverty, and it is these such families who could not live without the Childrens Allowance.

Ms. Gahan: That is the point I was making too. The rich who would raid the poor and middle class to transfer wealth to the 10% have more money each year. Fine Gael have just offered tax breaks to corporations. Today union members are few, top 10% ( business owners) have billions in greed money, workers wages are declining, national debt is high, and Ireland is in steady decline. So it comes down to Irish workers vs the top 10%. CEO’s demand Irish work for China wages.

They only care about the CPA.

We cannot continue to pretend they are untouchable just because they operate here. We will need to look at higher taxes on mega-rich corporate entities and companies.

The next government will most likely abolish water charges and property taxes. They could be replaced with a third band of income tax on earnings above 80K (with a graduated higher tax the higher the wage).

They would need to terminate the contract with German EDF and roll back the water service to local authorities like its always been. Our water infrastructure is better than in the 6 counties where people were left for up to 2 weeks without water in December 2010. We also have no water shortage.

Well they’ll have my vote, and I’m not the only one.

The problem with this country’s tax base was that it was narrowed so much over the period 1997-2007 that once the property bubble burst there was no way spending could be covered. Every single report done on the tax system over the last twenty years has advocated a broadening of the tax base. Look at practically every other European country including places like Scandanavia and you’ll see that the tax base includes property taxes, charges for refuse, water supply and in some cases a local income tax rate. Spreading the tax base is a much better way of ensuring that in future we never have a dramatic collapse in government income such as we had in the last few years.

The constant idea that we can tax some mythical “rich” people into the ground and cover out deficit is just nonsense. Its actually been proven that the last time we had a recession in the 80s we delayed our recovery by over taxing people’s incomes.

And as for this mantra that Tim has spewed all over this thread that we have no water shortage, there is a vast difference between the water that comes into the system and the water that comes out of the system. It costs money to purify that. Granted we should only be purifying water for drinking purposes which would cut costs but we had to retrofit our entire housing stick to make that work and that would be way beyond our abilities. This also doesn’t take into account the vast amount of money that is required to keep and improve the current water infrastructure that is crumbling around us.

And if you think your left wing friends in SF or the ULA would remove property/water taxes once they’ve been introduced if they get into government I think your sadly living in cloud cuckoo land.

Tim, can i ask where this magic Figure of 80K is coming from. Do you know how much tax is already being paid on this salary. Approx 30K. The remaining wage is then used to pay for mortgage, bills etc. Luckily enough the remaining income can then be spent locally in shops, restaurants, pubs. What does that result in……..Jobs. Jobs in the domestic economy. You really need to think this through properly. Granted people are suffering but its populist to keep suggesting going after “HIGH EARNERS”. Those very people are helping to keep the local economy ticking over.
But off course i must be some fat cat bourgeois to suggest this.

Mr. Walsh: I am conducting a research program, entitled coincidentally, “Who Gets More Privileges Than Non-Corporate Entities”. I would appreciate a list (one I’m sure you possess) of those privileges that are recognized by our tax system and protected by our laws, (the content of which may be incorporated into my study) – all in the interest of advancing man’s common knowledge and unending benefit, of course.

I will, following academic protocol in these matters, credit you for your input. Do us all a socio/economic favor, Jim, and define “left wing” uneqivically once and for all. (Or we could just try to keep those taxes at, ohh…maybe the same level – wha’dya think?)

boildyeggs: It’s not the mental capacity of folks like Jim Walsh that causes them to miss (or dismiss) so much of the potential taxes from the filthy rich. It’s their eternal smug hubris that convinces them that any answers beyond their own, are products of primitive (and thus disposible) human superstitions. They have the distinct capacity to, at times, make me question (by virtue of their dogmatic temperment) our own corporate-social responsibility!

The top 10% rich have more wealth than the bottom 400,000 Irish. All this wealth was inherited, no taxes. Is it unethical for someone with 250-300 million to pay less taxes than 5th year school teacher. America was a great country in the 1950’s when wealthy paid a 91% tax rate on profits not paid to workers. Ireland needs to take note of this in the upcoming Budget.

Why would you encourage a non-irish national to keep hassling the Irish welfare system for a medical card when plenty of irish are strugging to pay for doctors visits etc?
Imagine an irish person demanding free healthcare in the US! Ridiculous!

The medical card takes outgoing into consideration as well as income. I had to put down crèche fees mortgage payments loan payments petrol/diesel. Everything. At at the time there was 2 working with 2 kids.

Thanks yeah may re apply at some stage I am not too bothered now anyway as thanks god we dont see GP that often, but I just wanted make a point how the system is silly that they will give anything for unemployed “on purpose” and will turn down hard working individual. Perhaps benefits for unemployed are not bad thing, but combination of them and how they serve them is bad – makes people chosing lazy path than having motivation to get up from the coach and do some work actually. thanks.

fizi_water. Can I ask which country you came from? Did you get free medical care there also?

John F: of course you can ask.
I am from Poland and never availed of any free healthcare in Ireland.
Everytime I pay standard 50 or so GP fee, prescription fees, etc.
Our little one was unfortunate to land in hospital for 2 days once and it cost us over 200 for hospital + after care.
Oh, sorry my wife gave birth to our child here and that was free :) Excluding of that couple of boxes of chocolates for our lovely multi-international house wives :-)

John F: also to answer in full, yes in Poland GP and hospital is free of charge, once you work and pay taxes etc. See I wasn’t looking to cheat the system, actually I was offered by Irish GP to fill out Medical card form he gave me when he heard my wife is unemployed and which consequently was turned down for me by HSE or whoever else approves that. You seem to look at me like I wanted something beyond law. I am not even complaining I did not get this card, fair enough, I was only giving example that people who don’t pay taxes and don’t really want to work get all the stuff, while genuine people are turned down so there is no balanced and honest system in place. I’m sorry if I insulted you in any way. Thanks.

@fizi_water. The Polish way of doing things sounds better! Rewarding Tax Payers instead of rewarding free loaders!

FG’s agenda = tax breaks to the wealthy.

Well put Jackie :)

Jackie have you applied for Grant for college feed for your son?.. would ye not be entitled to help with college? regds Susan

No future government will be given permission to abolish property or water fees

How do you figure that? After we exit this EU-IMF program, we will be in control of our own budget. The EU Fiscal Treaty only covers expenditure – not the rearrangement of tax structures.

Water that falls from the sky is miles removed from what comes out of our taps. Either we pay directly for the expensive process of cleaning/filtering/generally making safe the water that we drink (like many E.U. countries), or the state pays for it by increasing our taxes. We can’t have it both ways.

Always find it amusing that people expect water to be processed, piped and pressured so it comes out of their taps for free and will bitch and moan if they are charged for it

Yet these same idiots will willingly pay money for a bottle of water in a shop or restaurant instead of just drinking tap water, coca and the likes have really seen these people coming.

Mr. O’Sullivan

You seem to forget the whole purpose of water metering – shortage of supply. In Ireland, there is no shortage of supply due to the large amount of rainfall. Water treatment costs are Low and have always been so.

Water is a plentiful resource in Ireland so clearly no need to charge for it. The FG government wan stealth taxes in any form. They will pretend there is a ”water crisis” when there isn’t. The costs of treating water are ZILCH by comparison to the cost of paying a bloated public sector:

Consultants in Ireland are paid more than in Germany, the Taoiseach is paid more than the German chancellor (sorry for the choice of example), the Irish president is paid more than the CEO of Lidl, the average civil servant in Ireland is EUR20,000 better than their counterparts in Germany per annum.

Study the cause, not the symptoms.

Exit EU-IMF ? we signed up to the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) and the European Financial Stability Mechanism (EFSM) .If you’d bothered to read them ,you would know we are now liable for an unlimited ( minimum 11billion) amount ,to an unelected quango who can not be audited or even questioned by police or politicians .

Barry,

You need to cheer-up. Water maintenance costs in this country have always been exceptionally low. Go into any water treatment plant and you will not find a single worker anywhere in sight. The reason? > it is an automated process. This eliminates costs. Water pipework infrastructure is already in place, no maintenance costs. Water pumps are automated again eliminating the costs of hiring workers.

Once again, people are forgetting the main idea of Water Metering – shortage of supply (IRELAND = NO WATER SHORTAGE). Honestly, this is textbook stuff.

If it can be taxed and there is a cost to providing a supply then I think it will be taxed. I don’t know why you think property tax & water charges would be abolished? I’d like to hear an explanation on that one.

Your later reply doesn’t explain it. It costs significant money to get water to our homes and there is significant wastage too. Why is it that there is talk of diverting water from the Shannon to supply Dublin?

Everyone paying tax for water supply = wastage. Metering = you pay for what you use. It makes an amount of sense.

the people on over 80k aren’t the problem. its the ones closer to a million or even a half doing the tax dodging. I would imagine the ones around the 60-120k mark are paying most the countries taxes.
(to clarify I don’t earn anything near that)

Take the large water surplus ,bottle it, and export it,Then use the money to pay for infrastructure .No they will sell water company to a multinational (German EDF) who will charge us though the nose and make vast profit.

Jeff we have not signed up to the ESM yet. And even if we had, there is a constitutional challenge taking place in Germany and the Judge who is looking into the matter has stated that he will not be rushed in his judgement and that it will probably come some time in August. If the German court rules that it is unconstitutional then the ESM wont come into existence.

Tomy Iona,

It does NOT cost ”significant” money to supply our homes with water – it has been the same as in 1999 (using equivalent currency rates). You are allowing yourself to be duped by Green Party propaganda. The costs of providing water are overstated, exaggerated and spun.

Water metering is only intended where there is a water shortage. Again, Ireland has NO SHORTAGE OF WATER.

Introducing water meters will also result in people using tools to bypass a water meter

FYI: Google ”how to bypass a water meter”

@Ann ; maybe the Germans will actually, accidentally ,do us a favour ,while Irish judges refuse to stick up there heads,from behind there gold plated pensions

Tim I would appreciate seeing the data behind your claim if you could provide it please. My understanding is that we are in the top tier within the EU for the percentage of income liable to tax in respect of the highest earners. If my information is correct then we wouldn’t want to perpetuate a suggestion like yours which was based on either a misunderstanding or mistruth!

Mick Collins,

Google is your friend. You can’t be bothered to do a Google search?

@Tim – Your premise that Ireland does not suffer from water shortages is incorrect. Over the last couple of years Many parts of Ireland have suffered from shortages to its processed water. On that note much of your argument falls flat on its face.

Emerald Phoenix,

Ireland is on course to record the wettest summer ever in 2012 (Wetter than the 2009 record). Your point rests among the tree huggers who still think global warming is a man-made theory despite being disproven in recent scientific findings.

@Tim, there is not a direct correlation between the water that falls out of the sky and the water that ends up in your taps. Its sad that I or anyone else would have to explain this to someone who seems somewhat intelligent.

Most people in your ‘bloated’ public sector dont earn anything near €80k!

I wouldn’t agree with anyone paying over 80k. The tax brackets are fine as they are for the average person, and in fact they are probably too high. However there definitely needs to be a third tax bracket for anyone that earns over 200,000 a year or there abouts. But definitely agree on the need for another tax bracket.

Tim – if your argument of “wettest summer” is to be taken as proof of no water shortage it’s very very flawed.

As for telling people to google things, that would leave you and others with free licence to basically say what you’d like with impunity.

Water delivery & many other services taken for granted cost money.

Lastly, make assumptions on the angle people are coming from all you want – you’re wrong in what you’ve assumed about my point of view though and have added nothing to the discussion by doing so.

You’re entitled to your opinion, but you’re wrong.

Tomy Iona,

If you want to pay for water charges, good luck ! 99.9% of Irish people don’t, however.

Instead, the very wealthy, are only paying 24% taxes, less than middle-class Irish.
Only Gerry Adams supports Irish working families.

I’m sure our water treatment costs would be a good 10million lower per year if they stopped fluoridating it..
This practice has been abandoned in every other EU country because it is considered unethical to forcibly medicate the populace.

I for one refuse to pay for fluoridated water, it’s toxic, and yes, it’s nothing like the stuff that falls from the sky..

@ Tim Jackson

Unless supplying water to our homes is 100% free….then it costs the government. We currently pay nothing for it. Given our precarious financial situation this is ridiculous. Irish people seem to just want everything for free.

Whether water treatment costs are low or high is more or less immaterial so long as the costs do exist. Whether low or high it still ahs to be paid for. As any family on a budget will tell you – “every little counts”. Essential items like bread and milk might cost little but its still a constant cost which has to be paid for every week. They have to pay for it somehow. The same goes for our water usage. It has to be paid for somehow.

Also the cost of water treatment relative to the cost of the public sector is totally and utterly irrelevant. No one is saying that the oublic sector doesnt cost money and no one is saying that water treatment is our number one cost. There are many many areas of the budget that cost money and need reform – water treatment is just one of many. There is no comparison with the public sector whatsoever.

In relation to the infrastructure and water piping – for one thing those pipes that are in good condition inevitably need maintenance. This isnt free and as most of the pipes tend to be underground, under buildings and within walls it makes maintenance difficult and relatively costly. Thats just for the pipes in good nick. Then theres the other parts of the network. Over the course of the last few winters it has been in the news everyday that the cold weather has caused pipes to burst and the current system is poor and can’t cope with the low temperatures. This leads to….water shortage as pipes either leak water into the ground or people leave their taps running so as to avoid freezing their pipes – thus wasting vast amounts of water, for free. This leads to…..you guessed it…..shortages.

“or the state pays for it by increasing our taxes.”

Barry and John: the point that escapes you is that we already pay taxes for this. Where do you think your water has been coming from up until now? The sky?

They will increase income taxes also. About time.

Good on you!

They need Ireland because we are an English speaking and skilled workforce. I think the notion that ”they will move elsewhere” is overstated by people in this category. Wealthy people in Ireland are getting wealthier according to a recent study.

Robert – there are not enough jobs in the country, so stop blaming the people at the bottom for the mistakes made by those at the top. Divide and conquer – dont fall for it!!!

Well said Ann. Divide and conquer. It’s an old tactic. We’ve seen it all before in the eighties recession. Setting people against each other. Depressingly predictable tactics.

And should we pick up the social security tab for all the Irish abroad?

yes, for those in eu countries

Which will encourage Irish unemployed to head to other countries where the cost of living is a lot lower.

I’d say there’s a couple of countries out there where you could live like a king on €186ish/week. Not a solution.

Shane that’s an interesting proposal. If you move from one Province to another in Canada your Health and Social Welfare costs remain with the original Provincial Authority for a period of five years. However I believe the EU may regard this as a restriction on the free movement of people given the levels of administration required to manage it.

Shane I do believe your talking crap

@Brenner everytime you post a comment I get so distracted that my outrage at the Govt turns to admiration for your abs!

Brenner,

Why would they target someone on 10K a year versus someone on 200K a year who pays little tax? Wouldn’t they target the bigger one first? Politically, it would be suicide cutting someone on the breadline.

Try and pay rent/mortgage, pay bills, do the shopping and send kids to school and more on €188 and see how far that gets you.

The wealth/greed of the wealthy criminal class who pay just 24% in taxes here compared to 90% in other countries. I’m talking about capital gains and dividends.

Why should the ordinary Irish be forced to fill the tax gap for the rich?? The problem is that taxes on the wealthy aren’t enough. We need to increase them in the budget.

Wendy,

If you want to pay water taxes, step up to the mark and donate extra – no one is stopping you.

WOW. Only the rich should have children? People like you are what’s wrong with Ireland. I feel nauseous.They are already starving elderly people because of people like you. No doubt you are a chamion for abortion too. Stalin would love you.

The resources of our country belong to the Irish nation. When Mark Thatcher pays for our oil and gas, I may consider paying the cost for distributing OUR water.

The bankrupt welfare scroungers in sharp suits with Porches and yachts should be the first to get a reality check. They are the real parasites and criminals. Corporate welfare is another drain on the common man.

We have gay rights, minority rights, women rights and disabled rights. Water is a basic right for all and should never be privatised.