If we had direct democracy we could.

Picture the EU as a playground Eugene. Ireland is the litte swot that always gets shaken down for lunch money as he’s too wimpy to stand up for himself and pays every day without fail. Iceland is the small yet well built little lad in the corner that when cornered by the bully jumps up and head butts him. The bully does’nt go down but to save face he tells everyone that he really was’nt after Iceland’s lunch money so he leaves Iceland alone and vice versa. So he then continues to pummel Ireland and the other school yard wimps for cash.

Michael bang on but the bully only beats up the wimp Ireland because wimp Ireland,s parents the #GOV have thought him to be a wimp and wants to keep him a wimp.I was down in Ballyhea yesterday in the hail and wind and rain. There was a good turn out mostly old men old women mothers and their kids .Where are the men where are they talking shite and talking it too.Weak let yere elderly and yere women and children go out and defend yere country.GROW SOME BALLS.

Taken from Jeff Neilsons article from Znet .
”What was Iceland’s approach? To do the exact opposite of everything the bankers running our own economies told us to do. The bankers (naturally) told us that we needed to bail out the criminal Big Banks, at taxpayer expense (they were Too Big To Fail). Iceland gave the banksters nothing.

The bankers told us that no amount of suffering (for the Little People) was too great in order to make sure that the Bond Parasites got paid at 100 cents on the dollar. Iceland told the Bond Parasites they would get what was left over, after the people had been taken care of (by their own government).

The bankers told us that our governments could no longer afford the same education, health care and pension systems which our parents had taken for granted. Iceland told the bankers that what the country could no longer afford was to continue to be blood-sucked by the worst financial criminals in the history of our species. Now, after three-plus years of this absolute dichotomy in economic policymaking, a clear picture has emerged (despite the best efforts of the propaganda machine to hide the truth).

In typical fashion, the moment that the Corporate Media is forced to admit that it has been serially misinforming us for the past several years; the Revisionists are immediately deployed to rewrite history, as shown in this Bloomberg Businessweek excerpt:

…the island’s approach to its rescue led to a “surprisingly” strong recovery, the International Monetary Fund’s mission chief to the country said.”

To put it simply we are being robbed to pay a lot of failed bankers – .

I don’t see an upside to letting ordinary depositors/savers lose their money.

They were not ordinary savers, it was basically an Anglo style bank for rich speculators. I may be wrong but I believe Icelandic residents were covered up to around €40k.

David they dont care about you .Your being used if you want to come out of college and be the same as them .Then im not going to allow you.

“I don’t see an upside to letting ordinary depositors/savers lose their money.”

They wouldn’t have had to in our instance.

Good business people and likewise good businesses all get to thrive and contribute again, when their crippling debt is written down/written off.
Tell me “intelligent leaders of Europe and Ireland”
(1) Why have you chosen to keep Ireland in a Coma of Financial Suppression for the past 5 years?
And
(2) How long more do you think you are going to get away with it?

Yea they did jail a few..I know why they didn’t do here it was because half the dail would have ended up in the joy

Steve
That is a most disgusting and ignorant statement. Could you advise us of the offenses you allege we’re committed by half of the relevant Parliament and could you further inform us as to whether you have provided these informations or evidence or date to the relevant Authorities or are you just making a silly uneducated and dangerous comment.

Michael
You may be partially correct but the bit you got wrong is horrific!
While there has been a minor recovery by way of last years economic growth rate you are omitting a key fact. The Icelandic Krona crashed in value by fifty per cent in the crisis and suddenly everyone and I mean everyone was in poverty due to the reliance on imported goods.
Please don’t let anyone convince you in a barstool discussion that Iceland has recovered because it hasn’t.
Just for a brief moment imagine if our currency only had half it’s purchasing power over the past four or five years but mortgages remained at their original values!
Let’s dream on !

Richard/Michael/ mark/ Paddy. Are you still here.

Michael, what a horrific way to speak to people! Even hiding anonymously behind a PC, some respect for other people’s opinion wouldn’t hurt. Just trashing and condescending people isn’t ok, ever.

As it is, Iceland proofed punishing those who are responsible worked very well. Despite inflation, unemployment and economic destruction was less and the duration slower. Unlike Ireland, where people seem to choose for attacking everyone else, except the right people.

Les
Hello!
Do you deal in facts Les or would they be too difficult for you. Frank hasn’t dealt with the true situation in Iceland so I’m wondering would you like to make an attempt . Or do fact and truths get in the way of a good old rant?

hmmm, I wonder what politician Richard Rodgers really is? Anyone care to fathom a guess? :-)

I’ve an idea. Why don’t we all hit report comment everytime Richard/ Michael /mark / Paddy comments?

For those who care to be informed about Iceland

http://studiotendra.com/2012/12/29/what-is-actually-going-on-in-iceland/

Though the fact they are scrambling to get into the EU after years of isolationism should tell you that things aren’t as rosy there as the left might like you to think…

Why is it disgusting to suggest that politicians go to prison for crushing this country or are you only talking about FG’ers?

Ciaran I’ll put a bit more faith in the likes of George Soros than some blogger who if you read all the comments below his post has had to make numerous corrections to his original post as he got so much wrong.

Richard let me give you some facts on Iceland. On the story on the Journal regarding Davos I suggested we should have followed the Icelandic example and was accused of knowing nothing about the situation. Here are some of the facts, with links, as I see them. 80-90% of Icelandic businesses should have gone bankrupt but weren’t allowed because debt was written down, as long as the business could show that they could grow without the crippling debt. Unemployment went to 9.6%, I have seen some reports showing it went to 7.6, but for the sake if this we’ll go with the higher rate, it’s now down to 4%. Iceland went back to the bond markets and sold $1bn 10 year bonds at a rate of 4.93%, that has since dropped to under 3%. These are facts that are easily verified by doing a little research. What has Ireland got, pay back the bond holders and pay back the Troika for giving us the money to pay the bond holders. The worst if both worlds. http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/12/iceland-ireland-portugal-markets
http://www.moneyweek.com/news-and-charts/economics/europe/the-lesson-from-iceland-let-banks-go-bust-20800
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/economics-blog/2012/aug/21/iceland-debt-relief-lessons-eurozone
I’m sure Richard you can post links that prove these stories completely wrong, but it just goes to show that its not as cut and dried as your pals in Leinster House would have us believe, that we have to pay back the bond holders, there are alternatives.

Michael
I’m actually retired from business and have never been an elected representative if that helps. I’ve also had to be very careful with respect to my privacy due to threats of personal violence for expressing my views.
Funny old world.

Ciaran
I believe I captured that data about Iceland in my earlier Post. It is interesting to know that facts can get in the way of most rants on these pages. Iceland is in a nightmare at the moment and I should know as I have family and business interests there.
If the bar stool economists who contribute here actually believe that we should emulate Iceland then they’re suggesting we leave the Euro and refloat the Punt while reneging on our debts and leave our Mortgages denominated in Euro.
Yes that would do it alright !
Everybody would be happy for about three or four days and then our currency would collapse from its opening position.
First the Supermarket prices would rise….somewhere in the region of thirty percent over the next few months. Then the Banks would adjust the monthly mortgage upwards to match the fall in currency values.
Then……….Oops …….maybe Iceland didn’t get it right!

Richard, would you, since u are incorrect in most of what u say and fail to address the bottom line.

Why in your opinion did Ireland do the right thing and Iceland the wrong approach? Figures don’t lie, so ensure to use “current” unemployment figures, debt % ratio on GNP, Not GDP that means feck all. Household debt and recent resurgence in skilled/highly innovative workers coming back into the market, why the banks are not hoarding up all the talent.

Figures on Iceland are here watch to very end ! Lets get them out we could have done this and be on the way to some substantial recovery!lets do as Iceland did

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/64eI831eKY8

The choice was pay the debt or return to the Punt. If people think returning to the Punt would have been a good idea then they don’t know enough Leaving Cert economics to make a debate worthwhile.

Jayk why do you think returning to the Punt would be such a bad idea? Not saying its a good or bad idea but just wondering what your thoughts are, since you obviously have more than Leaving Cert economics. And not just the I said so argument, actual reasons why.

Here is some of the reality of trying to return to the punt.

1 – Punt would devalue significantly against all major currencies because the Irish Central Bank would not have the reserves to maintain its value.
2 – If a default was part of the return to the punt Irish bond yield would rocket thus making borrowing to cover the deficit all the more expensive. Ireland would also have no recourse to any of the Euro stability mechanisms. Even if a default was not part of the return the likelihood is that bond yields would rise as the knock on effects of the change would discourage investment in Ireland.
3 – Central Bank interest rates would have to rise considerably from where they are now in order to maintain some value in the currency. The knock on effect of that is major interest rates rises in mortgage rates which would potentially trigger massive default or impairment of mortgage thus plunging the banks back into crisis if not outright collapse. As we own most of these banks ultimately that rebounds on to tax payers.
4 – The Central Bank would only have limited money printing ability because again you can’t just print money without something to back it up. If you flood the economy with new printed money you create inflation and ultimately it becomes worthless.
5 – While exports would be cheaper as a result of devaluation, imports would rise by the same amount. Given that Irish manufacturing imports most of its raw material any benefit in cheaper exports would be offset by rises in manufacturing costs thus any return to the exchequer would be neglible.
6 – Oil and Gas prices would rise significantly especially for consumers as well as manufacturing.
7 – Currency controls would have to be introduced to stop the flood of money out of the country.
8 – The logistics of chaging back to a new currency would be huge. Banking systems would have to be reprogrammed. Euro currency would have to be withdrawn and new Irish currency introduced in a short space of time. All of this would probably depress spending until people were sure what was happening thus making any recovery harder.
9 – The uncertainty over Ireland that such a move would create would probably depress Foreign Direct Investment which is a vital part of our economy.

This doesn’t even take note of the legal ramifications of a default and how the rest of our debt would work. I’m sure there are many more things that more informed people could add to this list but its already a bit of a horror show. The effect of trying to change back would destroy any progress we had made over the last few years. In effect it would mean that the pain we’ve suffered for the last five/six years would have been for nothing.

Dear Mr Punchyouintheface
I didn’t say that Ireland did anything correctly but to suggest that the nightmare in Iceland is something for us to follow is beyond the worst nightmare I ever had. The shocking thing about this story is that Iceland is not very far away and with modern technology that distance shrinks even more. With that proximity how is it that our understanding is so way way off?

Richard Keogh do you even know who Soros is? Google Black Wednesday. He is ‘the man who broke the bank of England’. Something he did for his own profit. The biggest trader on the global money market he is sure to be making money of the euro instability. In fact black Wednesday was him profiting from bringing down the first attempt at euro single currency. You should choose your advisors better.

As for my link Matt Cooper tweeted it a few weeks ago. A reputable source by my thinking.

The idea that there was a right and wrong way to deal with our problems is ridiculous. There was a bad way and a slightly less bad way. We are in trouble for gambling, gambling would not get us out of it. Iceland gambled, their scrambling to get into the EU and euro suggests that they aren’t over joyed with the out come.

Ciaran we are not in trouble for gambling, we are in trouble because private business (the banks) gambled and our government decided, in its wisdom, that we the taxpayer should carry the can. We are in trouble because international, professional gamblers ( the bond holders) gambled, and lost, but our government, again in its wisdom, decided “you know what sure lets give the poor little dears what they thought they should get”. That Ciaran is why we’re in as much trouble as we’re in. March 31st,sure here’s another €3.1bn for ye.

Declan we are in trouble for gambling. I personally didn’t gamble but we collectively did. Many gambled on the property market not just big developers but those who bought houses to ‘get on the ladder’ etc. This is a democratic republic not a dictatorship. Government did what people wanted it to do. It’s rather childish to pretend the big bad bankers and developers are the only ones to blame

Ciaran
just to point out we gambled collectively and we still are paying the price for that in out mortgages every month. that has not gone away and will be with us for the rest of lives and beyond for some. what we are paying for at the moment is the gamble of 100 or so people including the management of the now defunct anglo irish bank.
please dont mix the two up

i was a pure specalative bank
there were no day to day banking services, just a golden circle who played monoply with the help of the management

So Ciaran you reckon that buying a house to get on the property ladder is gambling. I would consider that providing for your family. People’s personal debt is one thing, taking on the private debt if private companies and speculators is another thing entirely.

Point 4 Jim .i’m curious to know what exactly backs up a fiat currency it used to be gold i believe.

Richard

Irish politicians have written a law that grants themselves un-vouched and tax free expenses of €15k per year of tax payer’s money.

The constitution states all citizens are equal before the law

However un-vouched and tax free expenses of €15k per year of tax payer’s money, is not available to every other Irish citizen.

Therefore Irish Politicians are in my humble opinion CORRUPT, and as far as I am concerned should be spending time behind bars.

Just wrong

http://studiotendra.com/2012/12/29/what-is-actually-going-on-in-iceland/

Ciaran
They don’t want to hear.
They still read fairy stories at night.

Ciaran and Richard, this article is a good wake up call for those who believe that everything is flowers and unicorns in Iceland. Clearly it is not. However, as bleak as Iceland’s situation is it is not as bad as the situation Ireland is in.

In a situation like this there were always going to be hard choices. Iceland made the hard choices and is on the road to recovery. We didn’t and aren’t.

Censored
Iceland is NOT on the road to recovery. Their economic growth rate over the last two years was half the inflation rate. Their imports are twice the price because the currency collapsed and their mortgages are in foreign currencies .
They’re in a disaster zone from which they will never recover and everyone wants to tell their wonderful story.
I think I’m in Alice in Bloody Wonderland you shower of idiots.

Show us the links to back up your argument that Iceland is not on the road to recovery Richard. It’s very easy to make claims but show us where you are getting your information. I reckon it’s the aliens who caused the economic crisis, nothing to back up my claim but how bad, believe me, I must be right.

We are trying to do the same thing by deflation Richard, and it’s not working. Iceland is already considered

Actual facts, during the crisis, Iceland did many things differently from its European counterparts.
1. It let its three largest banks fail, instead of bailing them out.
2. It ensured that domestic depositors got their money back
3. It gave debt relief to struggling homeowners and to businesses facing bankruptcy (13% of GDP written off, debts linked to foreign currency ruled illegal)

Iceland’s economy is now outpacing the eurozone, and it outpaced the eurozone last year as well (OECD)

Those are actual verifiable facts. Mr Bjarnason is also correct in pointing out that even all these measures Iceland is still in trouble. Not everything is rosy in Iceland, so what? They’re a hell of lot better off than we are. You’re like a man sitting in a burning house, pointing to the bloke who escaped with a few scorch marks and shouting that we should stay put in case we get burnt on the way out.

And you call us idiots: well yes I guess we could be described by idiots for signing ourselves plus the next two generations into indentured servitude.

Robin
complete and utter tosh
the reason we admire the icelandic government is because they fought tooth and nail against placing the debts of a private company on the heads of their people
oh! and they jailed the culprits aswell
take your government rose tinted glasses off
look at peter matthews the one qualified government member
see what he thinks of paying the bondholders

and by the way the irish people who took out the loans and spent all there money are still struggling to pay it back every month in their mortgages.
dont mix up the debts of the people with the debts of a 100 or so gamblers

Which part is tosh?

If the Icelandic government fought tooth and nail to protect their citizens from the risk of bank failure, why did they issue a bank guarantee?

And they weren’t bondholders. They were just ordinary people like you Frank.

Frank
You clearly don’t understand the situation in Iceland. The mortgage holders are in massive negative equity and their currency has devalued by fifty percent.
Is that the solution you propose for Ireland Frank because those are the facts.

Domestic depositors were guaranteed, and everyone else was left with what was essentially a massively defaulted situation. This included institutional investors and icesave internet subscribers who were ‘burnt’, which is the huge risk you take with Internet based non secure accounts that offer over the odds interest rates. Many in Ireland took the same risk with Northern Rock who could have been in the same situation if the UK had not socialised it.

There is no other way to look at it, but Iceland made the better decision to comply with their obligations and secure national savings. There was a short term hit to savings, salaries and exchange rates, but they are recovering and they have consulted the people every step of the way.

Ireland went completely over the top with their interpretation of obligations, and used the cover of securing domestic deposits to cover unsecured debts, all the while adding hundreds of billion onto the national debt and making the country financially dependant for at least 30 years, if not forever.

robin
thanks for your response

a comment from the icelandic head of governmentIceland’s President, Olafur R. Grimsson, told Bloomberg TV on Friday that his country is better off than Ireland because they allowed the banks to fail two years ago and devalued the krona:

“The difference is that in Iceland we allowed the banks to fail. These were private banks and we didn’t pump money into them in order to keep them going; the state did not shoulder the responsibility of the failed private banks.”
The Irish bank bail-out is being foisted on them by the EU and the IMF whereas sovereign Iceland let the banks go bust and restructured the financial sector to keep the commercial sector serviced. As a consequence, “Iceland is faring much better than anybody expected” says Grimsson:
“How far can we ask ordinary people – farmers and fishermen and teachers and doctors and nurses – to shoulder the responsibility of failed private banks… That question, which has been at the core of the Icesave issue, will now be the burning issue in many European countries.”

Richard Rodgers/Paddy Rodgers/ Michael Collins/Mark Sutherland
When you change your name constantly to snipe and gripe at people you lose all credibility
The lads in the factory up in Dublin 11 might be ‘blind’ to the sh*te you talk but you have been copped here ages ago

Frank
The only people talking up the Icelandic story are the same people talking up the Irish story….the IMF and each of the respective Governments.
How do you think we would manage Frank with a fifty percent devaluation in our currency and our mortgages linked to currency.
Are these facts too difficult for you to understand. ?
Sometimes Frank you just know that someone is tossing you a line!

Robin

U clearly do not understand the separation of debt in these cases!

Frank, agreed

Robin the reason I admire the Icelandic government is because they refused to let their taxpayers take on the debts of private companies, companies that were doing business to make profits. Would these companies have been so quick to run to the government and say “here you go, we made a fortune take a big chunk of it” if things had worked out differently? I don’t think so.

richard/paddy/michael/mark
the facts are easy to understand, its the amount of times you change your name i have difficulty keeping up with

i love you man
dont stop!