Oh yes, that is true in U.S., in China, in Indonesia, in Russia, in India… Oh wait…..!

Couldn’t agree more Aillis. Time and again we’ve watched opportunities to get some justice for our people pass by thanks to FFs negligence followed by FGs flaccid obedience to europe. We’ve inda in the dail playing dress up proudly exclaiming ‘paddy pays his debts’ while the financial markets are pissing themselves laughing at us for covering bankers gambling losses.

At it again….Pearse Doherty…. please give me a break….

Yes yes declan, how dare people mention Pearse Doherty on a page with a big photo of him on it that quotes him as well. I mean, why bring up Pearse Doherty?? LOL!

Trueleft…
My point is that there is no person less qualified to talk on finance in the chamber than Pearse Doherty. No economics or financial qualifications or experience….And before you say it…Minister Noonan has a HDIP in Economics and English..
Putting Pearse Donerty up as some kind of ecomonic or financial guro is plain crazy…
He is just not that talented i am afraid.
D

And yet he consistently makes mincemeat of every finance spokesperson he’s up against.

He does in his arse… God, you really only see what you want to see Trueleft….Mr Doherty is average to poor in every way.

I’d rather have him put up a fight for us than Noonan just nodding his head and accepting everything the ECB/EU throws at him which is probably why the EU elite will never ever consider offering us respite from their debt… they know only too well that FG are only good in fighting and subverting their own citizens and their own country and act like giggling schoolgirls when facing the unelected elite in Europe ready to prostrate themselves and act like the servile dogs they are.
It’s all making sense now – a history of spineless politicians means a future of second class whipping boys and Declan Cotter and his ilk are content to remain that way…sad.

Dermot…What do mean ‘people of my ilk’??? You mean people that work 50-60hours a week?? Pay taxes?? Contribute!!!! Dont you dare pigeon hole me….
i dont believe for one second that Pearce Doherty would be better in any walk of life than Michael Noonan… No way…Not as qualified, No experience, Not as good at public speaking….and quite frankly, i dont believe he would work the hours that Noonan does….
As for the EU….They paid our social welfare last month, and our teachers saleries etc. etc…

I can understand why those who are anti-SF get a bit queasy when they see how popular Pearse Doherty is becoming. He appears to command a respect that transcends the usual political loyalties and barriers, and when people talk about him they say things like ‘the future minister for finance’ or ‘a future Taoiseach perhaps?’ (just paraphrasing from comments left on journal threads). Because that’s what he is, the future of Irish politics, he gives us all some
Hope that someone with A sense of fairness and who is willing to do the work might one day be responsible for looking out for us. Like it or not, we will retract the so called mandate from the FGlab coalition and we will give people like pearse Doherty the ‘experience’ you seem to value so much, though ‘experience’ has done us all no favours up until now.

Ailis, afraid i don’t see it. FF will regain support and this will come at the expence of SF. FG share no voters with SF so the rise in any SF vote is not at the expence of FG. In fact the FG figures have been steady right through despite household charges, water charges etc. So please tell me where the 25% – 30% extra support SF need to ever be the major party in power will come from? You can all wax lyrical on here about SF running the country etc…but truth is at least 65% of the country cant stand them which means they will never really be viable…
I actually have a feeling that they may go down in the next poll…Poor performances on the debate, poor speaking in the dail, not taking hold or showing any leadership of the ‘No’ campaign…. 15% i reckon… take or leave it..

@declan – i agree, naturally there is a core of fervent FG followers who will always be party loyal regardless of what happens- that’s the kind of politics they’ve subscribed to and no one likes getting it wrong. But many of those who voted for FG were just numbering mainstream boxes that weren’t FF, not to mention the fact that many who voted were actually young and without the family indoctrination that ensured FFs longevity in gov, made up their own minds. In previous elections, the younger population of voters had a serious case of apathy, because the affluence of the Celtic tiger made them think everything was a-ok. But if there’s one thing this drawn out farce of a recession has done, it has woken people up, and continues to wake them as it drudges on. It will facilitate the necessary change that is the longest time coming in the upper echelons of our government elite. SF’s time is coming. Maybe not tomorrow but in my lifetime, for sure.

I pay my way too Declan, I contribute more than I can afford so this government can continue to squander it all and that is not an endorsement of the austerity treaty which according to everyone is just to make it law that government don’t squander my taxes, to me that’s just plain common sense and we shouldn’t need faceless, unelected bankers or German politicians to design some law for us.
Will you give over about SW…you’re complaining about pigeonholing yet 99% of your comments are full of SW derision like the people who receive SW are some sort of alien race untitled to any help from a state which I pay daily into.
Get it into your head…although people of a certain persuasion like to call the bailout a rescue package do you honestly believe that the EU/ECB and FFG’s “European partners” forced a rescue package upon us so those on SW and nurses would receive their entitlements….do you?…or do you accept the FACT the EU/ECB and FFG’s “European partners” forced a bailout on us to protect the banks of foreign states, and it was Frau Merkel who set the ball rolling just so her taxpayers would not bear the costs of their banks failed gambles?
I admire your faith and loyalty in the crap regime called the EU with no accountability and is practically German run, it’s cute in a way but I prefer my democracy democratic.

Dermot,
I dispute practically every comment you have made on this feed.
Once again do not pigeon hole me.
D

Declan – Ask me do i care what you think, as for pigeonholing – well sir, you have done enough with your arrogance and ignorance and the delusion that everything you say is right to pigeon hole yourself……. seems to be a trait amongst FFG/EU apologists.

Dispute all you want…you know i’m right…cheerio :P

Ed, its an awful pity that no-one else heard those grumblings you refer to… In fairness to FFg/Labour, they grumbled about the same thing prior to the last election, but we all know what happened as soon as they got elected and saw their big-fat pay checks, ministerial cars, advisers that do all the work, and the odd little helping hand from Dennis O’Brien and co… Its a National disgrace and equates to treason that FFg/Labour did not follow through on their promises. SF are right, but i dont think its too late. If we had the likes of Pearse Doherty in the negotiating room even at this stage (time is of the essence), we could still force the EU to take the debt off our books. We need to stand up to Germany. Right now, France would be relatively easy to convince on this issue. We could threaten to immediately default, unless the banking debt is removed. Germany and France will not want to play ‘Chicken’ with a country that will prove its metal by voting ‘No’ to the pact at the end of this month. But we all know that FFg/Labour won’t do the right thing for the country, they are Party first people.

Cal same thing would happen if Sinn Fein were elected. In all likelihood they would do as they do in the North and implement the policies of austerity.

I think you are overstating how “easy” it would be to convince France of anything either. At the end of the day France and Germany have much more common interests at heart… Hollande made alot of un-implementable promises during his campaign. Promises not generally scrutinised because of a desire to see Sarkozy go… But they will be scrutinised now and seen for what they are.

More likely he will be unable to follow through, as FG/ Lab were unable. Nature of the beast. No reason to believe SF would be any different, in fact every reason to believe they wouldn’t be (policies in Northern Ireland)

It can always get worse…. In fact it is hard to envision any scenario where Sinn Fein in power does not result in a flight of capital… Then again they will probably just do what the do up North… Implement the programmes anyway…

Really?.Not that hard to imagine all you have to do is look at Icelandic financial crisis.They introduced capital controls.It was a proposal by the IMF as well so its not all that radical either.

Well unless you can predict the future I would rather let them in and see what happens. The north is a different jurisdiction as you know so lets leave it out of the debate unless you actually know exactly what goes on up there.

So Simon you think it is ok to scream No to “austerity” in the South while implementing extreme spending cuts up North, while all along claiming to represent all of Ireland? And with a stated long term aim of uniting Ireland.
Smacks of hypocrisy

Well we are taking about the republic here and also the whole united Ireland thing is something I probably won’t see in my life time so let’s just deal with the matters at hand.
Iceland sunk to the bottom and are now on top of it all. Take a lead out of their book and least they are binging politicians to task over the chaos they found themselves in.

The humiliation would be in Gerry Adams as leader

Stop with ‘Pearse Doherty’ stuff…

same dinner everynight boys ??thought so

A Short Primer for Teachers in Government.
1. You don’t borrow to pay back a loan.
2. Money created without any real value to back it up is ONLY worth the paper it’s written on.
3. If you need a lot of money you don’t ask for it from the poorest guy on the street.
4. You can only cut your way out of a recession if you have something to cut.
5. Tax revenues are for public spending not private business.
6. The space between your legs is where your cojones grow.

Lol Mark. Very good until No.6. If you’re female – they grow on your chest. ;-)

Sean, there are none so deaf as those that do not want to hear …. SF put alternatives forward … Constantin Gorgdiev said publicly that he would want SF’s Pearse Doherty in the negotiating room on many occasions, when discussing how to manage the banking debt. Unfortunately, many people listened to the BS and scare tactics from the establishment parties. These parties are all sitting on high ministerial salaries or pensions right now, laughing their heads off at the people that were intimidated and gullible enough to give them these salaries. It is high time that people started listening to the facts, instead of the hype. We cant afford FFg/Labour/FF running (or ruining) our country anymore. They need to step back, form a Dail based on National Unity, and invite the likes of Pearse Doherty into cabinet and into ANY EU negotiations. Otherwise, we are going to continue down this path of self-destruction.

Most European economies require radical structural reform to return to growth. Central to this the existing banking model needs to be abandoned and replaced with a 21st century model. A welfare scheme for banks, whether it is funded directly by taxpayers or indirectly through the efsf is a waste of money. CPR will not resusitate zombie banks.
Constantin Gurdgiev recently pointed out the need to start thinking outside the box in terms of banking models.
Unfortunately, the Central Bank is one of the main obstacles to reform in the banking sector.
“Given current funding difficulties, it is hard to imagine any significant uptick in lending in the Irish economy from the traditional banking platforms. Thus, we need to create a set of tax and regulatory incentives and enablers to support new types of lending, such as facilitated direct lending from investors to SMEs. Such models already exist outside Ireland and are gaining market shares around the world, in particular in advanced Asian economies.

The State Guaranteed banking model is, as the 2011 results show, firmly bust. Time to rethink the strategy is now.”
Gurdgiev

“the Central Bankers are the arsonists in this crisis, who pose as firefighters.”
Detlev Schlickter

Cal, Maybe I live a very sheltered life but I honestly cannot recall anytime that the policy as outlined by Honahan was articulated either by any Party in the political system or on various discussions in this forum. It was much more along the lines of “burn the bondholders”, “its labours way or frankfurts way” or “lets default and start again” and this is by everyone bar probably FG who were lets face it a bit more circumspect about bringing any new proposals other than what was in place by the last government.

A large proportion of the electorate at the last election beleived that was the only way forward which is why FG got their bounce, no one beleived things were going to change over night, Labours improvement had more to do with many in public employment (and others) giving them a vote to act as a brake on any perceived excesses that FG might inflict. Ranting about sell outs as goes on here is nothing more than political posturing!

The policy that Holohan outlined in his speech is much closer to the Ganley view that the sovereign debts of the EU should be federalised and in fact is a proposal to federalise the banking element of those sovereign debts, of course is he talking about new injections or will the policy include those injections already made? That is the question. the proposal is now out there and all should work to ensure that it is carried thru to best advantage i.e. by including those injections already made, I think in welcoming the comments Pierce Doherty recognises this and it gives a real opportunity to advance a coherent policy by Sein Fein on an alternative treatment of the debt.

Mr Gurgdiev who you (and Declan Ganley btw) like to quote wrote on this very website some weeks ago that sovereign default is not a good idea and should be avoided but that is never quoted to suit anyones needs. So its very easy to quote people for your own needs as Karl Whelan has found out.

Beleive it of not we do get to have elections every few years and we do get to vote how we want to and the last elections did not show that we wanted a government of national unity. You might be impatient for Sinn Feins participation in government but beleive you me the time is coming when they will participate in a government, they are masters of teh long game as I am sure you know. However, that decision will be made at an election time and not by some policital rantings because it sounds good to do so.

“We live in a world that seems to have abandoned the concept of savings and investment as the source of real wealth and economic growth. Financial markets clamour for more cheap money creation on the part of central banks. Hopes of further quantitative easing from the Fed, the Bank of England, or the Bank of Japan – or further longer-term refinancing operations from the ECB – buoy markets, while decisions not to intervene can cause stocks to plummet. Policy makers focus on spurring consumption, while ignoring production. The so-called capitalists have forgotten that capital cannot be created by government fiat.
Control of the world’s economy has been placed in the hands of a banking cartel, which holds great danger for all of us. True prosperity requires sound money, increased productivity, and increased savings and investment. The world is awash in US dollars, and a currency crisis involving the world’s reserve currency would be an unprecedented catastrophe. No amount of monetary expansion can solve our current financial problems, but it can make those problems much worse.”
Ron Paul (FT: Our Central Bankers are intellectually bankrupt)

Sean, It was the current Government of FFg/Labour that turned the banking debt into sovereign debt this year. Gorgdiev, who you are mis-quoting, was totally against this action. Gorgdiev is against defaulting on sovereign debt, as are most rational people. The concrete has not dried on the banking debt to sovereign debt change yet.. We must take swift and fearless action on getting that stupidity reversed. Think about it like this, if your child made a stupid mistake and told one of their friends that they would take the loans on from another person on the same street, then like any good parent, you would step in and tell the child, go back out and say sorry and explain the folly of their ways. This must be done soon, otherwise the concrete sets, and we will be burdened with this debt for the next 20 years.
Its either that, or we accept the debt of our neighbours, because we are too proud to admit our stupidity. Which would you prefer Sean Norris… Don’t forget the old adage, ‘Pride before a Fall’. I for one, am not too proud and would gladly demand my neighbour takes back their own debt, and i would gladly tell my child to stop trying to be everyones friend and start looking after his own family.

Cal, To say that the government only converted bank debt to sovereign debt this year is a fallacy that is easy to use in the here and now to make political points. That process started on September 30th 2008 when the government said that the sovereign would stand four square behind the bank system. Everything thing that has been done is a follow on to that policy decision, the capital injections (who borrowed the money, the state) the promissary notes etc. The event that you mentioned as the start of the government taking on the soverign debt as being only this year was the SECOND payment on the promissory notes. The first payment was March 2011 and no one raised a sqeak so we are actually two years into that process.
Having said all that I do agree that the policy outlined by Honahan last nite is at last a policy that can meet everyones objectives and provides a way for unravelling the tie up of bank debt with sovereign debt. the trick now is to get it implemented and applied to existing bank injections and not just new ones.
On the matter of sovereign default I do not think that I was neither miisquoting or quoting out of context what Mr Gurdiev said. He had 3 distinct types of debt in the article Sovereign, and from memory Public (including bank debts)and Private Debt. The gist of the article was that Sovereign debt default should be avoided at all costs but that default in the other two was both necessary and should happen where appropriate. What was not stated in the article that I recall was that as a result of the policy decision of September 30th 2008 when the banking element of the debt was moved from public to sovereign. therefore in the absence of any policy change that the defualt on bank debt would be nigh on impossible. Prof Honohan’s proposal is the first realisitic policy proposal that I have seen to break this logjam and get the debt out from the sovereign and maybe into a fourth catagory “super sovereign” where the risk is at least shared.

Sean, once more, the Banking debt was only converted to sovereign debt this year. There is no getting around that, and that was the debt that Gorgdiev wanted us to default on (or renegotiate, write down, or any other term that makes it acceptable). Trying to put the blame back soley on 2008 is a joke. Nobody forced Enda Kenny to convert this debt. He was like the little child i referred to above, he did something without the permission of the Irish people. He wanted to be seen to be the good boy in Europe, everyone’s best friend… He was everyone’s best friend alright, except the Irish people. He has converted a private banking debt into a formal sovereign debt, which is something we cannot and must not accept. Voting No at the end of this month, gives us a way out… We can inform the EU that Ireland will no longer make any repayments on this 70 billion euro, and that they must ‘renegotiate’ or any other term they want to use this debt away into the ECB. Yeah, we will no longer be seen as the petting boys at EU conferences, but needs must.

Cal, You really are not seeing the big picture here. the fact is that the Irish Government has since 2009 invested billions (on foot of the 2008 policy decision to stand four square behind the banks) in recapitalising the banks. This money was borrowed by the sovereign and invested by the sovereign so yes it is sovereign debt. You have become blinded by all the rantings about the prommissory notes earlier this year which again I stress had its first payment in March 2011 so to say that we have only taken bank debt onto the sovereign debt this year is not true. see the attached link

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/11/09/00032.asp

It was very convenient to forget that this happened last year without as much as a wimper when political capital can be made of this years payment!

I welcome Patrick Honohans speech as did Peirce Doherty as there is now a policy framework out there that means that the issue of the Anglo Promissories and the sovereign debt that has arisen due to the recaptalising of the banks can be dealt with.

Sinn Fein. Always with the negative waves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyh-JpWdGmQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Love the Kellys Heroes reference…Oddball was a legend!

Never mind recapitalising the banks Patrick….
…..they have enough of our money!!!

They will only steal the money anyway!!!

Recapitalise the people……
…..Its their wealth!!!

Try taking some advice from your brother Edmund.
http://www.rte.ie/news/money/debt/banks-drive-people-to-suicide.html

We had funding sick shinner. fine gael colluded to have this safety net taken away if we don’t vote the way we’re told. Guess some people are ok with being blackmailed and threatened.

Some people are not.