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THE PRIME MINISTER of Greece has taken to the national airwaves to warn rebel MPs that the country faces an “economic and social catastrophe” of unprecedented proportions if they do not approve his new austerity plans.
In a televised address from Athens last night, on the eve of a crucial parliamentary vote, Lucas Papademos said the Greek economy was “just a breath away from Ground Zero” and that he was looking at the Greek public “straight in the eye”.
“The social costs that comes with these measures are contained in comparison to the economic and social catastrophe which will follow if we don’t adopt them,” Bloomberg quotes him as saying.
Greek news service Ekathimerini adds that Papademos said failure to ratify the deal would ensure that Greece would default on €14.5 billion of bonds which mature next month.
“A disorderly default would set the country on a disastrous adventure,” it quotes him as saying. “It would create conditions of uncontrolled economic chaos and social explosion.
The country would be drawn into a vortex of recession, instability, unemployment and protracted misery and this would sooner or later lead the country out of the euro.
The appeals come as five members of the 48-strong cabinet quit in protest at the measures, which include cutting 15,000 public sector jobs and slashing the minimum wage by 20 per cent.
Although the parties in government notionally command a huge majority in the 300-member parliament, a number of government MPs have already pledged to vote against the proposals, while significant numbers of others have refused to disclose their intentions.
The BBC says conservative leader Antonis Samaras has ordered his party’s 83 MPs to vote in favour of the plans, saying rebels would not be nominated to run in the parliamentary elections coming in a few months’ time.
MPs begin debating the controversial measures from noon Irish time, with the final vote taking place at 10pm. Protesters are expected to convene outside the parliament from mid-afternoon to demonstrate against the latest austerity.
The proposals have been demanded by eurozone finance ministers who have refused to sign off on the latest €130 billion bailout unless Greece radically cuts its spending.
Greece’s private bondholders have also refused to write down the value of their bonds unless the government imposes the tough new measures.
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Vortex …. Explosion …. Fuck off. Like the world will implode. Your kids will whither and die. The reality is you can’t have a new TV or car for a while and you’ll have to live like your parents. Who funnily enough were happy.
Fantastic comment. Being held at ransom is no fun for the people of Greece but the reality is that the world won’t implode.
Exactly. Jesus people back in the 50′s and 60′s such as our parents had nothing, yet they were happy and only remember the good times. No one is going to die once you have enough to eat.
Also it’s gas how Greece owes 14.5 Billion but has to get another loan of 130 Billion to pay this. Seriously wtf!!
It’s like a person who’s broke owing the credit union e20k for a car and taking out a mortgage of e200k to pay for the car but is still broke to pay back the e200k. When is all this madness going to stop? Most of the money owed is created out of thin air anyway. I think but not certain that the money the Central Bank put into Anglo was created out of thin air and now we have to pay interest back on this (premisery notes?)
Is it too simply to say that we should wipe the slate clean and start over? The whole system is flawed anyway.
Let it sink, something will have to give, these unaccountable greedy yuppie bankers and bond holders need to start listening and play to our tune from now on.
This whole situation is an unholy mess and to be honest I don’t think anyone actually knows how to resolve it. one side says austerity, another default, yet another talks conspiracy theories as to reasons why they are in this mess warning of some sinister plot by the Germans/French/IMF/ECB. All the while the situation worsen, Greek people grow ever more confused and scared while the rest of Europe watches and waits. Are we next, will we need a second bailout, who are the bondholders, are the government lying, is it fair, did we bring it on ourselves, should we protest, should we accept our fate & get on with it?
I’m so weary of seeing these articles and feeling conflicted all the time about the rights. and wrongs of it all. What is the answer really? The only thing I know for sure is I feel great sympathy for ordinary Greek citizens facing today and every day for the foreseeable future.
Damned if they do! Damned if they don’t! The Greek situation just goes to show how important it is that people get to have a say! 91% of Greeks are against this, yet it looks like a parliament led by an unelected bureaucrat are going to vote for it! If that’s democracy? Then you can keep it!! Now we can see why Endas gang are so keen to prevent a referendum taking place here!
The answer was let capitalism run it’s course, let the banks fail. but imperialist attitudes have taken control. Once you accept you’re future has been compromised by corruption the answer becomes obvious.
Ok Paul let the banks fail then…… What is the alternative to capitalism, as far as I’m aware socialism & communism have been pretty unsuccessful too. Dictatorship? All those options are pretty grim too. Is there another way to maintain society that is workable? The world is pretty messed up overall so not sure how we can work this out without austerity of one form or another.
Sorry for sounding like the voice of doom but I am truly worn out trying to work it out.
EMD. Don’t be thinking people who go against the grain are conspiracy theorists. That’s a term used to discredit a new way of thinking. The elite have always used propaganda to discredit opponents. ;)
No Reada that isn’t what I mean at all, going against the grain is fine if youcan provide a workable alternative. I don’t know how to which is why I’m asking. I realise that multinational companies, banks etc. are less than ethical to put it mildly but I’m asking what is the answer or does anyone actually have one?
We have to remember that all money is only a piece of paper symbolising a unit of energy. The money in your wallet is real if it was earned. We’re expected to pay international banks and bondholders their computer generated fake money debts with real cash? That cannot happen. The balance of nature will not allow it. It’s pure and simple. I wish the “intelligent sheep” types would stop calling us stupid for stating the bloody obvious.
Its not capitalism, its neo- feudalism, debt slavery. People need to start organising at community level first then nationally and it has to be global to get rid of these evil bastards. Social networking is a great way of doing this. If there is no referendum then a petition must be organised to get rid of the current govt. cause they made false promises to get into office. People seem to think we are powerless but it couldnt be further from the truth. A couple of years ago i would have been quite gloomy about the future cause no one was protesting but things have changed and its going to be a snowball effect with only 1 winner.
Well said Derek. People power is the way forward. Collectively, we can change the way things are!
How? how are you planning to change things through people power, what can people do? I’m asking a genuine question, what D Burns do you currently do that is bringing people together and actively changing the system? I’ve read the articles, heard the words but HOW is it actually going to happen? It is ithard to get a group together for the most simple local activities so I’m pretty stumped on how this is going to happen.
It is one of the reasons we can thank this inane government for the Household tax. It has awakened communities all over the country. As it affects most of us, gone are the usual divisions, and communities are meeting and getting together. The energy this creates cannot be suppressed.
There will be a protest march in March and it is important to go as families and remain peaceful but defiant. Thank you Phil Hogan. You have handed us our revolution on a plate.
Hi EMD, who said anything about looking for an alternative to capitalism? just straight up capitalism would do the job. Not this imperialist crap we seem to have going on at the minute.
How about ACTUAL capitalism, no propping up banks, no bailing out business with tax payer money, corporate criminals being held accountable for their actions.
People seem to have this mad opinion that the word ‘capitalism’ justifies any sort of shenanigans not matter how immoral as long as you can get away with it.
Most of the arguments I see on here about banks, and governments etc… spout the rule book, things like “that’s democracy” “we elected these people to do a job….” endless quotes of constitutional rules, how it’s OK to look for ways around the constitution etc – well the rules of capitalism say bad businesses FAIL. Once private interests are propped up with OUR money in the manner they have been recently, the system is no longer capitalist, nor democratic.
This “no workable alternative” excuse is bollox too. From what I can tell a “workable alternative” when the term is used in these types of conversations means a solution where no one looses anything. That’s impossible. The other solutions is what I describe above, the current implementation, which is wholly unfair to the general public. I’m not just talking about the Irish or the Greeks here, do you think the German public is happy their government is loaning us all this money??? I seriously doubt it. But it’s too late to do anything about that now – the creditors have already been paid off for the most part. Whatever happens now everybody looses (except those initial bond holders). I just think ACTUAL burden sharing needs to happen, massive debt write-off NEEDS to happen. We’re on to a lost cause at the minute. It’ll be blatantly obvious in a couple of years, maybe even a couple months if things don’t go according to ‘plan’ in Greece.
Also, the way people are looking down on the people of Greece now is despicable, once they fall all eyes will be on us – things won’t be so pretty then.
@EMD, how it’s going too happen is the question isn’t it? I don’t know is my answer.
We need committed, honest, hard working people to take control. I’m hoping the one good thing to come from all this might be a renewed social awareness and focus on what proper first world societies should be like along with the will to make it happen.
It needs to happen.
Can we have some real Socialism thrown into your straight up capitalism please Paul?? Say 50/50. I won’t be greedy. All about the balance…. :P
Tailoring my replies to the language of the people I’m replying to – in so much as I can. I’m avoiding using old politics words as much as possible – I worry that every time I use the word “social” people think I want some sort of dictatorship.
I think we should drop all the old political terminology too. How about some plain old common sense. :-D
He must be friends with Leo.
MORTGAGE STRIKE !!!
Corrupt banking and political ”elites” still trying to convince the man in the street that he caused Europe’s problems by overspending on his credit card.
People you cannot believe a single word you are being told by the political elite bankers the judiciary accountants doctors radio tv there all lying why?
He should take a look out the window http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/02/hold-greece.html
Europe has already witnessed the beginning of the end of democracy; at best, it was pawned to repay greed, at worst, it was deliberate.
Quote of the year! summed the whole situation up in once sentence! :-D
yes it was deliberate
We will bve next if enda and his gang don’t grow a pair and stand up for us ‘
This is shocking. The audacity of Papademos to do an “Enda” on it and speak to “his” people. How helpless must the common Greek person feel with their wishes being ignored.
This cannot be allowed happen. People have to take their power back from elected, or in Papademos’s case – appointed, politicians. It has to happen. No laws of nature or balance can tolerate what’s going on at the moment.
Big money and big business are pulling the strings and staying in the background letting politicians do their bidding and we are pawns or slaves. Some like being slaves. Most don’t.
Hi Reada,
You see this is what I mean about confusion, what are Greek wishes? They don’t want to pay back these huge amounts of money well I get that but what really is the solution? I genuinely don’t know what the best way forward is but I have concerns about all actions. you know what I’m kind of scared if I’m truthful, I hate the way the banks seem to get away with things, how detached from the real world the politicians seem to be but I worry what happens if we really do refuse to pay taxes, pay our loans etc. Things are bad now maybe they would be worse if we default? What are the alternatives? What has been discussed so far doesn’t sound all that attractive either.
I don’t think anyone wants to be considered a slave but I think Greece and ourselves are so trapped within the EU system that we really have limited choice. BTW I never voted FF or FG into power so this mess pisses me off even more as they really are responsible for poor book keeping and cronyism!
A lot of fear there EMD. Please don’t let these threats make you frightened. You are a person with a right to be here. You have a right to live in peace, to have a roof over your head and food to eat. You have a right to have an education and a job where you in turn contribute to your community.
There has to be some form of debt forgiveness across the board without us looking at our neighbour wondering are they getting more than us. It’s the only way out of this mess.
There is always an alternative. We should tear up the page and start again. A lot of economists think this way too. Pity governments are listening to the old school boys. But walls are tumbling down all across the planet. They can’t stop what’s coming. The power is with the people. It always was but we got lazy and gave it away. Take it back.
@EMD, if it’s any consolation I’m shitting myself every time I turn on the news or go on-line to read. Between this, SOPA, ACTA and the stupid agreement currently on the table things aren’t looking good at all.
That harmless agreement by the way, permits the use of force if anyone steps out of line.
Also, until about half an hour ago I thought avatar was a picture of big bird from sesame street, never looked directly at it. :-D
lol Paul, do you know what it is now?
Yeah the news is the worst, my head feels like it will burst from trying to figure everything out. Having a social conscience is a burden at times.
“let the banks go bankrupt” – Ron Paul, Here he is in full blast http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=1YjBoHAzhiU
The talks a good talk, I’m pretty sure he’s like Obama, all talk no action ( see Bill Hicks voting joke).
check this out when you have a few spare hours:
EMD
I am scared too. but ,I am more determined than anything now that I acknowledged exactly what is going on with Germany,the french, Troika. They are the ones who are REALLY scared. They do not want to give us back power. We should tell them all to F**K o** , Kenny et al should stand up and walk, or do the jobs they were elected to do and protect their country men and women( I don’t like the term ciizens, it reminds me that we live in an economy)….
@EMD, I’ve figured it out :-D
@Paul, look him up he’s being saying the same things for years, unlike Obama who changes his mind every 4/5 months.
Is he out of the race now?
His income tax policies seem totally nuts!
Headline should be changed to if you vote yes. Same crap all over the world. In America several congressmen both Republican and Democrats have stated on camera that when they voted on their bailout they were told that Fema would take over and Martial law would be declared if the bailout was not agreed and this came from Paulsen. Takeover is complete if they vote yes.
The sooner the whole financial ponzi scheme collapses the sooner we can get on with rebuilding. Its a mess but its going to get a lot worse unless the Greeks call the politicians’ and bankers’ bluff and default. Doubtful the bankocracy will allow that to happen whatever that takes but you have to have some hope!
You’re talking war there.
The Greek bailout is not a bailout of Greece, it’s a bailout of foreign banks, mostly German and French.
Back in Medieval times these people were hung left, right and centre when they tried to take control.
Thanks Paul :-) I think what you say makes sense, more sense than anything I’ve read in a while. I agree about the view being taken about Greece but I guess people feel the need to blame someone else rather than look to themselves. The whole situation is an almighty mess.
Derek, I hate to be pedantic but I think mean “hanged” not “hung”.
It’s a doomsday scenario. Reality is they are still in the EU. I’m pretty sure all those Treaties that were signed had clauses to gaurantee basic human rights and conditions. If Greece goes into freefall the onus is on the rest of the EU to provide the measures that stop that.
And because of that my guess is that the EU will blink first and wont let Greece default regardless of what their parliament votes for.
Does Germany really want see fellow Europeans starve due to bad calls made by greedy German Bankers.
So whatever option the Greeks pick they are fecked. So best take the option where they retain their dignity and get back control of their country. That is what the bankers fear. Mass defaults. Throughout history countries have defaulted. And are still about and functioning.
The recently ended twentieth century was characterized by a level of human rights violations unparalleled in all of human history. In his book Death by Government, Rudolph Rummel estimates some 170 million government-caused deaths in the twentieth century. The historical evidence appears to indicate that, rather than protecting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness of their citizens, governments must be considered the greatest threat to human security.
Hanse-Hermann Hoppe
Fair play Sean. I know you don’t share my socialist ideas but I look forward to a future where there will be a balance of ideas. This unbalanced system has to topple.
Why has a bankrupt nation purchased 400 army tanks?
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-10-05/markets/30245456_1_greece-european-debt-crisis-greek-comedy
Jesus christ. This is fubar. Emd I feel ur fear. This is nerve wracking. I think about the greek mps in their chambers trying to decide on a rock or a hard place as the sounds of 40,000 people can be heard from outside. I wouldn’t be one of those
Mps for all the money in the world.
I’d love to be Niamh. Feel the fear and tell it to feic off I say. But you hit the wrong reply link. Lol
Nope, I didn’t ;) I was replying to sean’s link but thought I’d chuck emd into the mix.
Meant to say I was too lazy to post two seperate posts…I know….I’m.bad. ;)
If Greece rejects the bailout and they can’t borrow on the open market…then I wonder who they will blame.
Not sure but I imagine they’ll go out and riot about that too, probably somehow mange to blame the Germans on that as well. A part of me wants to see this default happen. And certainly it’ll show many of the commenters in here just how far off the mark they really are. People who use Argentina as an example to follow frighten me a little.
I’ve absolutely no doubt of what defaulting means, but you guys are taking the piss if you think what’s happening now is the solution.
Paul, what is happening now is not the solution. I cannot speak for Gary but I thought it would be obvious from my posts that rioting and rejecting the only money on offer isn’t a solution.
If Greece doesn’t accept the bailout terms then there are only two possible outcomes, neither of which is good.
“economic and social catastrophe” of unprecedented proportions if they do not approve his new austerity plans.”
Nearly the same words Veradkar used to promote fear in us here just before we paid over 1,250,000,000.
http://www.thejournal.ie/troika-warned-a-bomb-will-go-off-in-dublin-unless-anglo-bondholders-repaid-334621-Jan2012/
We must see what they are doing .
I do not fear Veradkar or any other self serving toerag that’s in Leinster house……in fact I think they fear us more…Awake a sleeping giant…..Awake the nation of Ireland…..Enough is Enough…
I don’t fear him either ,they fear us more . I am tired of being afraid …..
Lets be honest, most people in Ireland and the world especially the younger generation dont really care about politics, they know its corrupt but they shun away from it. Its hard to get them interested but there is ways like music and t.v. On netflix there is a lot of great doc.s about the way the world is, recommend them to people as its a powerful medium. I got a lot of my friends interested thru music like Immortal Technique. Generally dont listen to rap music but this guy is very powerful and his lyrics are spot on. Kids love that shit ( rap influence ). The acts being implemented against the internet has stirred a lot of kids so there is a lot of hope out there for the future. Lets be positive about this shit ( rap influence again )
And there are some great teachers out there who are also educating our children about politics and social issues. 2 of my kids had fake elections in school to show them how PR works. At the risk of being called a hippie (?) there is an awakening happening. Can’t come soon enough.
True, but i don’t like rap. I don’t shun away from it either tho ha I personally love politics and can’t get enough of it. I must say tho, if we’ve to get more people involved we’ll have to scrap CSPE, I’ll let you think of why that might be, there is more than one reason I know of that might stop people wanting to get involved but I’ll let you figure it out yourself.
And when I say world….I mean People….not Goverment…
It good to see Ireland starting to wake up.We have slept far to long now.Time has come for the people to fix Ireland They all brought us down with sheer greed,and an uncaring attitude towards its own people.Its become very clear to most people,that this recession only affects the less well off,as everyone else seems to be getting richer
Two little maggots had a phone call, one said bomb and the other said explosion!
Doesn’t take a genius to figure out who I’m taking the piss out of.
“Taking the piss” usually means some level of wit to state a great truth. It does take a genius to see either the wit or truth (though I see half of the former.)
:) Very good Karl
So all the experts in here… what do you think will happen if they have access to no money?
Yawn…..keep beating that drum gary, nobody hears it anymore.
What and you think that Greece have no friends around the world…..This is were people stand up and help fellow human beings in times of need….Of course they will have money……From Greek communities in America,Australia and every other country that has a Greek population.Do you honestly think that the world will let them starve and go cold…….if you do you have lost faith in human kind.
Niamh. I’ve yet to get an answer that makes sense.
Pete. You’re telling me that a country which has just borrowed a vast amount of money and not paid it back will have people lined up to give it more? Right.
Maybe ask a sensible question gary instead of spouting the usual manta.
Gary………The mention of money was not from other countries but form their own people….who will no doubt help them in time of need….
Gary we dont know thats the truth but like the first time you drive a car being unsure & afraid is part of the learning. Maybe if this all colapses we will destroy this country or maybe the political elite not only of this country but of the eu & beyond will say the people have had enough & it will start a new revolution we dont know. But I will tell these people have led us down a deadend & they have failed. I cant make any garuntees to you except we will have real change. What you are getting now is a real catastrophy. It you want.a garuntee buy a toaster in argos.
The Greeks are now dealing with the lenders of last resort, the IMF. They give you money when you are totally screwed. But somehow if the Greeks tell them to fukk off people will be lined up to give them money. You’ve got to be kidding me. Why would anyone give money to a total basket case of a country.
Niamh I keep asking how the Greeks (or us for that matter) would fund the large overspending that pays for state services. We for example spending 15-20 billion more than we have each year, it’s where most of the money we owe was borrowed went. Are the magic fairies going to give us money too?
Gary, I’ll answer your question. Greece will have nobody lined up to give them money if they reject the bailout. In short, if you tell the only people willing to lend to you to go away, then you’ve just shot your only friend.
Pete, with respect but where were all these benevolent ex-pat Greeks when Greece coupons hit 25%? They weren’t lining up then. Here’s a shocker for you- only the EU/IMF Troika came to their aid.
Tom, well put. NOBODY would loan Greece money, unless it was at a monster interest rate. The troika come to their aid and people start blaming the troika. If I was German and was reading a lot of the stuff that is being said I would be disgusted.
Eileen I have been asking this same question for days on The Journal and not one person has explained where the money is coming from. Or address the catastrophic consequences of having no money to fund state services.
Are Volkswagen finance going to be doing home loans?
I don’t think its a question of living like their parents – their parents probably pdidn’t end up homeless and queing up for free food.
They’ll start again, and slowly build their nation up – maybe sort the corruption along the way if they’ve any sense.
You think no-one will trade with them, you’re wrong. Look at Iceland, did the world stop trading with Iceland after the defaulted?
How come you can’t see how futile this course of action is? Do you honestly think Ireland can pay back the money that’s due in the coming years?
Got that proof of how the austerity is working for me yet Gary? Able to show any improvements there? Things are getting better already right?
How about that bank guarantee, how did that solution work out? almost half a decade later what’s changed? still not long enough to see the benefits right?
You guys need to start showing where these measures are working now, you’re sounding like a broken record.
have your say