Well said Kenneth

@ Mark – I agree with you to an extent, bit there is a difference between damning a people with lazy slurs and stating a proven reality; it is a realistic possibility that the Greek government will not be able to effectively collect the tax revenue that is theoretically due and to successfully implement the conditions of the bail out. Many of the islands do not seriously recognise Athen’s authority. This is not a slur, but it is a part of their culture; many Greek people identify with their island or region, not the nation. This is not in protest to austerity, it ore-dates the current crisis.

@ Mark @ Kenneth – apologies. My last comment was replying to Kenneth’s comment not at Mark’s.

@John- they are collecting tax already, and the taxes charged for basic services, such as electricity and gas, have sky rocketed, pushing the lowest earners into poverty. I’m not defending their governmental system, why would I? I take your point about many of the islands, but that does not change the facts on the ground, in any way. The ordinary Greek is paying the price for this whole disaster, and it is clear from reading the comments of some on this thread that many in Ireland are enjoying watching the Greeks suffer. It is a poor reflection on us, in my opinion.

I totally agree with your comments on Greece I work around the islands with the last 3 years. Near to all pay taxes. It’s the small to medium businesses that are HAMMERED with taxes while the rich get away scot free. You will see a big difference on who survives in the next year. nnAlso you should look at how much is spent on arms for the likes of Germany, France and USA. Check out the costs!!!! Errrk all back scratching and paying off politicians. nn

Yes, the ordinary Greek is paying the price, and they’re going to pay an even higher price. I’m in no way criticising the Greek people. I loved my time there and I hope to spend more time there in the future. But the situation may well descend into farce as the Greek government are making promises that they may not be able to keep. It’s not that they don’t want to keep their promises, or that the Greek people will make it impossible for them to keep their promises as an act of protest or in a fit of pique, but it may simply be impossible for the Greek government to keep these promises. It remains to be seen if the government in power are representing the people or not. They#re stuck between a rock ( EU ) and a hard place ( their own people ) and they might not be able to find a middle ground.

@John- No one is disputing that. They are in an awful place. I would just like to see a bit more sympathy and solidarity with a struggling people. That’s my whole point really. It is sad to see such hardship levelled on a proud people, who misguidedly believed their politicians were running their state. Some of the comments earlier just surprised me. The tendency to stand on the Greeks head and say we are on dry land does our state a disservice, in my opinion.

@ Kenneth – I agree completely. This tendency to point fingers and blame other nationality, whether Greek or German, by both politicians and the media, has only escalated the problem. If the various governments in the EZ had worked collectively on a sustainable solution rather than using the crisis to gain the most benefit for their own country, the current situation would be far less severe. Promoting conflict and ill-feeling between nationalities only benefits fringe political groups who are gaining popularity as populations grow more fearful and desperate. I am an Irish citizen. I have spent time in Greece and am in regular contact with friends who still live there. I currently live in Germany. I’ve gotten to see many sides of the situation and, for the large part, the people in all three countries have pretty much the same fears and concerns, and it is the general population in these countries that are suffering from the bad decisions of their politicians.

This is true, unfortunately. The anti-German and anti-European rhetoric that has become commonplace on this website is not only ill-informed, it’s unhelpful and is shooting ourselves in the foot. I’m based in Germany, and, while the average German is not a) laughing at the Irish people and b) whistling merrily while planning to take over the known world, they don’t believe they are obliged to bankrupt themselves to save the PIIGS countries. The truth is, during the boom years, both average wages and quality of life were far higher in Ireland than in Germany, and so, if Ireland must borrow to maintain these, then fair enough, but these debts must be honoured. Before someone starts banging on about the banking debt being forced onto the Irish government by the evil Germans, please realise that I am not saying what the “truth” is, only the general perspective held by many German people. As for who is to blame for the rolling of the bank debt into the country’s debt, I don’t think we need to look as far as Germany. Look at who agreed to this, not who proposed it. Was the Irish Government really “forced”into this deal? How exactly were they “forced”? Of course Germany and France wanted to avoid taking the debt themselves, they were only looking after their own interests. The Irish government chose to accept.

@Mark- the black market is thriving because the government has pushed the price of ordinary goods out of the reach of most working people. The people are at breaking point. The price of oil, gas and electricity has forced many families to live terrible lives, so why should we not feel solidarity with these people? Should we support the people imposing this hardship? The ordinary workers did not screw up their society, Mark. They pay taxes and elect officials and politicians to run their country, much like we do. It is a democracy, as you must know? Now they are reaping the harvest from generations of poor political decisions, in much the same as we are. They are suffering, and I feel that we should have solidarity with them, as they ask for relief from Germany. I can relate to their frustration, and I sympathise with their feelings about their inept ruling classes. I cannot understand your anger toward these people, Mark. To be honest, I think it lacks any type of human perspective. People are setting themselves on fire, mark! Does that seem like a functioning society to you? These are not villainous criminals, Mark. They are people who, misguidedly, trusted their elected officials. We should have solidarity with them, in their time of need.

John- The Irish government were, indeed, forced into taking the deal. That’s why it is now being revisited. Protecting the euro was the priority, at the time, as our late Minister for Finance recounted many times. Most European politicians admit this, and some have even referred to the way it was pushed in us as being ‘unjust.’ I read something in the Wall Street Journal recently, which decried the unfairness of our bailout and spoke about the behind the scenes efforts of British officials to get our deal revisited…
As for the anti-German stuff, most of it is superficial. People are annoyed by the austerity driven initiatives being pushed by Angela Merkel, when all indicators show we need a stimulus to ease our economic woes. They vent on this, and other, sites but that’s as far as it goes. The German people are still very welcome in Ireland, as you must know. Our people’s have always gotten on well.

@ Kenneth – I can’t agree, I’m afraid. While there was definitely a lot of ( perhaps ) unfair pressure put on the Irish government at the time, and a lot of very harsh negotiation, I personally believe that the decision was made on the Irish side based on what was best for them, as individuals, to the detriment of the country. As for the anti-German comments, it may be seen as superficial and simple venting in Ireland, but the constant mentioning of Nazis and a Fourth Reich has disappointed and offended many of my German friends who are following the crisis via internet, and I don’t believe they are wrong to feel offended.

John- I don’t believe they put this debt on the states shoulders for their own betterment. It was a career ruining decision, and they knew it, so it would not make any sense? They were self serving politicians, so survival meant too much for them. Remember when the troika arrived? They constantly put maintaining political power above the interests of the state, so I can’t see them rushing to commit suicide. I could be wrong though! Hopefully, time will tell…
As for the anti-German thing, I have never seen anyone refer to Angela Merkel, or the German people, as Nazi’s on this site. The administrators would remove it immediately. I know it’s going on in Greece, but it certainly is not going on here, or any of the mainstream sites. I have seen references to the Reich, but they were never placed in a WW2 nazi context, to be fair. I suggest you Report any comments that you see like that John, as they are offensive and not in keeping with the mood of this site.

A soothing morality tale from Father Mark, with nice, easy answers that only involve blackguarding a whole nation. Isn’t it great when your world is black and white? German newspaper readers think so too.

Incidentally, we are well enough stocked with cheats, liars and rent-seekers in this country.

Agreed TurkeysforChristmas:

Enda Kenny says the Irish all partied too much….. I didn’t party, i dont have any bank loans, i have no overdraft, no credit bill worth talking about. But i am guessing tarring everyone as going mad, to cover and pay for the sins of a few, is typical of FF previously and FF/Labour now.
It reminds me of the post i saw on facebook 2 weeks ago. A photo of a 5 year old girl, with a sandwich board around her neck saying, I owe 78,000 euro and i only own a dolls house’.

According to Mark Hamiltons slant on world economics, that little girl is an alcoholics, hungover to bits for having partied from the day she was born.

In Ireland, we have 30% unemployment amongst the 18-25 year olds. How many of them partied? Its is against the laws of the land to hold the children accountable for the sins of the parents. Except when FFG/Labour/FF say its ok…. right?

What is that collection of non related and non linked garbage data got to do with Greece unable to collect taxes from the self employed such as doctors and lawyers. Look at the retirement age for the Public Service and the average sick days taken in a year and you will see a very sick country full od evasiveness and dishonesty and tax dodging and rip offs to beat the band. Look at the Government who traded with multinationals without paying them for five years. Stop reading sprats you don’t understand.

Do you get any oxygen up there on your high horse Mark?

And today’s Play School economics lesson is through the square window!

Jerry, No progress has been made in Ireland either, and yet we have had 5 years of severe Austerity. Austerity does not work. We need growth rather than Government implemented and mandated contraction. Our GNP has been in the doldrums since we started implementing the Austerity programs of the last 5 years. And the Government plan another fanstatical round of it, in December. You don’t throw petrol on a fire to try and put it out. Our patriotic leaders have not got a clue how to run this country.

Cal, I agree about austerity not working and that politicians are not doing the right things. However, in Greece’s case, there are measures related to collecting taxes, eliminating restrictive practices and corruption in the economy for example, that need to be done. There are very powerful vested interests in Greece who prevent any reforms taking place and this will hamper any attempts at creating the type of growth Greece needs. If something is not done to reform the Greek economy, any funding used to promote growth will just vanish into a black hole, as has already happened with EU structural funds in the past.
Ireland is meeting its commitments but at a huge social cost of unemployment, poverty and hardship. That’s why we can argue for more lenient terms ( which I don’t think we’ll get ). However, there is no evidence that Greek society, with its corruption, restrictive practices etc. is changing to enable Greece to become a modern economy capable of competing in a global world and eventually living within its means.

@ Jerry – I’ve spent a bit of time on Crete, and, much as I love that island and the people, I have to agree with you. There’s a culture of acceptable non-compliance connected to paying tax and general regulation that is entrenched and will be almost impossible to remove. I can’t believe that the government in Athens will be able to implement policy throughout the islands. Direct comparisons between Greece and Ireland aren’t really helpful because Ireland doesn’t have this same culture of non-compliance.

@John. You have it in one. I’ve been teaching English and living in Athens for 6 years and there is no comparison between Greece and Ireland in terms of how the government and state institutions operate. I try to monitor the scene and comment on developments. A cultural shift is necessary if Greece is to remain in the Eurozone. Check this out if you’re interested. http://www.jeriakis.com/greek-diary/

Old Nokia Chargers don’t fit anywhere anymore!

Neither go FFG/Labour Mark … Do ya think we can get rod of them? People still use old Nokia phones, they have a use. Unlike our FFG/Labour Government. They are more like a very very very expensive adapter, between Merkel and the Irish people.