It’s quite simple Sean! Wealthy gamblers have to be looked after at all costs! Cronyism is still thriving in the banana republic of Ireland!

So do I. Enda and co. saying we have to pay are way. It’s not my debt you little weasel!

Hi Sean senior bonds are equivalent to deposits, they pay around the same interest rate but are locked in for a time period. Paying senior bond holders is the legal equivalent of allowing people to access money in their account. Unsecured on the other hand is supposed to be a gamble.

Another great day for Fine Gael!!!

legal equivalent my arse. i believe it is in the constitution that the people who lead this country in government are supposed to do so in the best interests of its people….not bondholders….whether they are senior or junior

Killian
Thanks for your explanation. The problem I still have is that upon the failure of a bank the senior bonds legally have no more status than a depositors money regarding recourse to the investor.
It is only because the government took on this bank that it’s gross mismanagement and subsequent debt became the burden of the Irish citizen.
The fact remains that private investment risk has took on the added security of sovereign support where that was not a guarantee on the original investments.

I actually feel so sick about this I cant even read it. Nothing has changed, we still have massive unemployment, our standard of living is still falling, households have less income never mind disposable income, children sitting their leaving certs in the next few years have little prospects beyond college except to emigrate. We need a radical rethink to get ourselves out of this hole and the current conservative goverment are not capable of any original ideas, just the same rehashed ideas we have had for the past fifty years. They dont listen when our own economists are saying the current program isn’t working but continue to toe the eu agenda. Its a sad day when the only prospects I can see for my children are out of this beautiful country.

@Sean
Unsecured bondholders are bond holders who have essentially loaned money to AIB. As they are unsecured, the secured bondholders are paid first (its like preference shares over ordinary shares). They only way AIB can get out of paying it is if it and its owners go bankrupt, in which case the secured creditors take AIB’s liquidated assets, then the unsecured guys come in for the scraps. We could’ve let this happen, but we bought AIB by bailing them out (we own 98%), so as AIB is not legally bankrupt it or its owners (us) are legally obliged to pay the unsecured bond.

Correct Brendan
And in addition to all you have said we’re also on the hook to honour the bonuses, big salaries, pension deals, golf outings etc. etc. that are the right of the banks senior executives by virtue of their contracts which now stand as our responsibility. Happy days upstairs in AIB!

The IMF don’t really care whether Ireland burn the bondholders. It’s the EU putting the pressure on Ireland to pay up.

Never mind the IMF not saying anything ….I watched the evening news yesterday and do not recall the National broadcaster saying it !!!

IMF stated that we should burn the non secure bond holders, it was certain countries in the EU – who’s governments and banks have those non secure bonds – that demanded that we pay up otherwise they themselves would be hit for the lost!

I do wonder at what rate we are paying back the non secure bond holders? At the secure bond holder rate or the higher non secure bond holder rate?

Jim B B
What difference will it make if it is the higher rate or the lower rate …. We will all be dead before any of it is paid off!

@ Nigel O’Neill

I wonder did many change their bank accounts yet, I doubt if they all have EUR2,000+ sitting there.

Reading this article just give me an awful pain in my heart. It is just so wrong.

Sheila
Same here . I do not want to sound flippant or like a nut but you are a great woman and I love you . You are one of lifes survivors …. Keep going, I am with you in spirit .

@ Susie,

Aw, my God, that is a lovely post. Thanks. I notice both of us seem to be very verbal on these threads! I suppose we have to get our anger out somehow. If I was to meet aherne, flynn etc. on the street today, I would probably slap them really, really hard.

When I read some of the posts on these threads, there are so many lovely people on them. I feel sometimes that I’m banging my head against the wall sometimes, until I hear and read their posts. I suppose there’s always someone, somewhere worse off than I am. Keep up the fight! “No to household registration fee” (’cause that’s what it is!) :)

Mick of course it has been kept low key along with the almost 1 million homes who have refused to pay the HH Charge – All because of a small upcoming referendum of course ; )

We won’t forget, tho’. The long grass is a great place to wait in & pounce from.

Mick B
I was just making that same comment .This is is the first time I have heard about this … Shame on the lot of them . So much for Smoking bans in cars and all the other nonsense .
Journal I am surprised you have not written about it before now.

Agree with you should not be paid but who else could we vote for our tds don’t exactly allude confidence in me none of them not one

Your right jerry and I am hoping that some decent people will get together within this organisation http://www.irishdemocraticparty.ie/
I have joined this party in the hope that it can be a new political movement and improve the Irish political landscape.

Why do the IDP want a new constitution 1human being?

Have a look at the website it will explain about the updating of the constitution for modern Ireland Ryan.

I did have a looksie but I ask why they want a new constitution? The one we have is perfectly adequate in safe guarding the Irish people. I don’t buy into the ‘modern Ireland’ as a reason to change it. Yes there are parts that are out dated ie the blasphemy etc etc but these are ignored and not enforced and ignored. So again I ask why do the IDP want to change it?

Also I wanted to say that I do think Ireland need a new fresh and real political party but I’m wary of any new party without any solid foundations changing the only piece if legislation that is good for the Irish people. Maybe if and when this party gets its feet wet can it ask the nation to change the constitution but not as it stands.

Thats fair enough Ryan as this party is in its infancy as a political party and is looking for citizens to join and debate what is good for Ireland. I am sure this will be part of the debate within this party.

We could of stood up and not paid the household charge but now about 70% have paid, how can we expect the gov to stand up to the EU and bond holders when we don’t stand up to them, shame on everyone who paid the household charge

where are you getting your figures from jay,, its a long way off the mark,, according to the 2011 cencus their are 1.8 million homes,, 1.75 million were due the charge, and gov figures yesterday said 890,000 paid, thats about 50%, most of them paid under duress,,

Nothing to be gained by giving out to those who paid the HHC Jay. Many would agree with your broader points. We’ve baled out & nationalised the banks. Thus far there’s been no real assistance for those with distressed mortgages. But we’re still paying unsecured Bond holders while cutting welfare, health & education; the fundamentals of a modern democracy. Flashmob the AIB?

You’re right Michael
Jay. A measure of hope for you perhaps, and a word of warning. Never allow a divide and conquer situation to emerge. Look at the household tax for a min. It was expected to generate 160million – a drop in the ocean when compared to the 20.7billion to bail out AIB. Now think about it. What’s the best outcome for the Government? Everyone compliant with the payment or everyone at each others throats? I think it’s obvious don’t you?
Another thing: Think of those who paid. How would you feel if upon scrimping and saving to do what you think is the right thing to do (or you’ve been scared and frightened into paying this charge) when you see for real how your efforts are betrayed and your money is wasted. It’ll happen and there will be a lot more angry people out there who need to stick together. Never loose sight of who the true traitors really are.

Exactly John murphy.

Ailis
I mostly kept quiet about this household charge business because I believe it is a cynical ploy by the government and it’s corporate backers, advisor’s, cronies et. al. to throw a diversionary tactic – and it could work! If we’re not careful.
Do not for one minute believe that the government are fools (or rather those for whom the government act in the interests of are not fools) the compliant citizen and easily mislead voter is the fool and that means us all.
We need to wake up and be aware of their cynical tactics. This is a small country with a tight political clique and they are ALL (every party of every colour) in it together. They all have their snouts in the trough and we’re carrying the buckets. Simples!

Ailis McKernan
I totally agree with you . It is exhausting . How do we overcome such injustices ? I do not know . Make our voices be heard , and keep saying what we are saying . The government are so out of touch with reality and the peoples feelings . Keep saying what ytou are saying it . Do not be afraid , stand up and be heard

Jay
I didn’t thumb you either way . It is so easy for all of us to jump on a band wagon and accuse each other of all sorts , and while we are at that the government are playing with the big boys and destroying all of our lives . THat said I am appealing to everyone to just STOP for five minutes and think about how their own lives or their immediate family’s lives have changed over the past three / four years . Look at the neighbours , your extended family, your community. There is mischief afoot and it is not us ordinary folk tweeting or commenting on the journal that are causing it . We must be very cautious and try to be calm.What the government and it’s agents are doing is wrong , WRONG. We have to look after our selves and each other

Hear, hear to all of you. You all make so much sense. I feel the people that paid, which was their decision, will see more bullshiting and verbal diarreas in the next couple of weeks and they too will be shouting with us.

R Quinn, Mins for Education is hinting in every speech at the Teachers Conference that they need us to give a ‘yes vote’ in the referendum. Teachers getting annoyed with him as they are there to try and hold onto funding for special needs and specialized schools for our children. They don’t need Mr. Quinn to be sneaking in a sentence on the vote every time he speaks. That’s just going to piss them off more than they are at the moment.

If F Gael/Labour want a ‘yes’ in the referendum they best get off their big arses and do something quick, give us something that at least looks positive to us, our children, our homes.

You’ve hit the nail on the head Sheila!
If they have us at each others throats over this household charge they will have polarized the electorate on it’s feelings for or against the fiscal compact. You may bet that the people who have paid the charge are those most likely to vote for it and those that have not the least likely to.
Now if we play into their hands by squabbling between each other we fall for their rouse and it’s game over.
Don’t anyone think for a minute that this shower and their conniving cronies are not up for such cynical ploys If you do please think again because our country is going down the toilet fast.

@ John Murphy

Hear, hear! I am sure some that paid may be sorry they did. But what’s done is done. What we all need to do, is just work together. Bull Hogan is happiest when he sees all of us shouting at each other. It takes the guilt away from him.

People that paid also have children with special needs, children that need a carer but has been taken away, the only 1/2 hours a week they had, is gone. People that paid, we’re here shouting for you, for us, the tax payers and also the people that lost their jobs. I don’t care who you voted for, and they don’t care either about you.

With interest!!!!

@ all,

Sorry, but I have to go for a walk and stop reading these articles. Bastards!! Bastards! (sorry).

@ Stepen Maher.

A pox on the lot of them, infected piles, constitpation, UTI’s (urine track infection) and many more that I can’t think at the moment!

Lets not forget a nasty dose of the clap,

ahhhh, one can only wish

I had to take a break too and go for a walk and get some air …. I am so mad , and still NOTHING on the news about this ….. The propaganda machine is working well @ RTE.

“If the [Fianna Fail/Green Party] Government knew Anglo Irish Bank was insolvent and [Cowen] asked Irish [citizens] to bail it out and to pay the cost we are now paying for it, that WAS and IS economic treason. I stand over that.” Eamon Gilmore speaking in the Dail in January 2011.

You couldn’t make this stuff up!

Like a lot of people, I was taken in by rhetoric and bluster, but I now know that Irish politics is about personal gain.
Its about holding the office and gaining the financial reward, both immediate and with a gold plated pension.
Thats my reality now.

And I will be very careful in future, and so will most of us I believe.

The good old days are gone and the politicians better realise this soon or they will pay a price with very short careers. But of course all you need is a few years to qualify for the treasure.

Sheila! We need a leader! I think that you could be that person! What do you say? Ireland’s on the brink of something big! All the people need is a bit of guidance and passionate leadership! I think you’ve got what it takes!

@Mike Scott,

Aw, thanks! I’m able to speak and 100% is from my heart, I can shout louder than anyone, but my experience in some quarters would be very limited! I just always tell how it is and it’s bad, bad at the moment. I hate liars, thieves and inequality. I hate the way the ordinary person is always screwed and blamed whenever anything happens.

It’s like the Bank of Scotland giving me a morg. that there is no way I’ll be able to pay! If I was to pay it in full, I will be working until I’m 75!!! If I’m actually still here. At the time, I had a good job, the chance to do overtime, but I wasn’t a high powered executive (some like to call themselves that!). I believe that the banks were giving their staff huge bonuses for every account that was opened. The clerk didn’t really care whether I could pay it or not, it was a bonus for him! He actually offered me more than I wanted, and I kept saying ‘Jesus, no! I’ll be hard set to pay what you’re giving me’.

I’m sad they/we f . ck up on our parents R.I.P. our grandparents and now our children.
This was done everywhere, all the banks are to blame, and F Fail for allowing it, they knew for years that it was going on. That’s what pisses me off. How long more I’ll manage each month to pay, like everyone else, but I’ll worry about it when the time comes.

As am I. i’m making as many transactions as I can before the end of May and I’m moving my account before the deadline.

But we are paying the AIB debt anyway ! (€100 x by 11 years = 1,500,000,000 + €100 x 8years = 1,250,000,000 )x 1,860,000 households . not to forget the 3,100,000,000 promissory notes for the next 15 years to Anglo Irish.(The dead bank) It is a complete joke and every single one of us whether we have paid or not paid the household charge are the fools for tolerating it . Our government , which at this stage feels like a dirty word in my mouth , are taking the p*ss completely .

baldur,,, your an idiot to be dealing with them in the first instance,,,, secured bonds or unsecured bonds,,, its a sinking ship,,, pouring money into a bottomless pit… wake up,, its going belly up

Another analogy would be borrowing money from the bank and paying it back on time.

I suppose you could grumble about it and accuse the bank of reckless gambling for even lending you the money in the first place.

Who do you think are pushing the red thumbs on all the comments?! That is probably their best, and only, defence today.

Why boycott just the household tax?
Campaigners in the US, so disgusted at the Wall St. bailouts, have began a campaign to encourage 1 million taxpayers opt out of the taxation system completely.
When government sees fit to abuse taxpayer funding in any way it chooses it loses the authority to collect taxes from it’s citizens.
http://m.facebook.com/pages/1-Million-To-Opt-Out-Of-StatismNot-Pay-Taxes-In-2015/189734851108744?id=189734851108744&_rdr

Well said!

I agree, the people who ran the banks who got us into this mess should be held to account.

of course there isn’t a difference Jay. Do some googling about FG and Denis O’Brien and other political donations. read about the moriarty tribunal- look at their record since they’ve been elected.. anyone outside of the elderly who still has faith in them is bonkers.

Well, I paid it. I’m not unpatriotic, I resented having to pay it, but I also resent being judged for doing it. It was my choice and I made it. The wrong being done to us as a country doesn’t give me permission not to pay a tax mandated by the government of my country.

Ireland is still my country and I pay my taxes because I still believe that ultimately it is in my best interest to do so. And the interests of everyone else, as far as anyone can judge that.

In the end, I didn’t think the best way to fight the battle against this injustice was not paying this tax, I think it’s the referendum, but I don’t judge people who didn’t pay it. We all have to follow our own judgement on that.

Well said.

Well said.

jimbo do you know. please enlighten the rest of us!!

So, we’re legally obliged to pay the bond holders? I don’t know if we are, but let’s say we are for the sake of argument.

It is also true any legal agreement can be re-negotiated and re-agreed legally, and in this case, both parties will do what’s in their best interest.

If I owe money on a loan and I tell the person I can only pay back 10%, or else they get nothing, they have to accept it, or chase me forever to get their money. And they may never get it.

Both sides of any legal agreement can agree to replace it with another one.
Bondholders aren’t people, they’re rich financial institutions. Just look at the list of Anglo bond holders: http://order-order.com/2010/10/15/anglo-irish-bondholders-should-take-the-lossesis-the-ecb-forcing-ireland-to-protect-german-investments/

But the people of Ireland, the taxpayers, the old, disabled, etc, etc, we are suffering from this deal. It’s a bad deal for us and the government are failing to represent us in Europe and getting us a better deal.

I’ll for a big No in this referendum unless we are given a big reduction in the debts.

Yes a lot of the bondholders are companies like Goldman-Sachs etc, but they are acting in the interest of their clients who are people, either rich people looking to invest money or people creating a pension fund, you can’t lock your pension contributions you make in your 20′s in a vault until you’re 67, it needs to be invested to retain its value. Burn the bondholders and a lot of the people of Ireland you speak of will be saying goodbye to their pensions.

And you’re right it can be re-negotiated legally, but as I said, only if AIB declares bankrupcy, which can only happen if its owners (again, the Irish Government) declares bankrupcy, which is impossible. Your analogy only works if you really only can pay back 10%, the Government as a body is not technically bankrupt so it cant make such a claim here.

I think that saying that the bonds we’re paying back is money in people’s pensions is way too simplistic. The majority of investors in GSAMI are big international organisations and they can easily afford a loss of a few billion: http://www.goldmansachs.com/gsam/worldwide/index.html We the people of Ireland can’t afford it.

Goldman-Sachs is an interesting example to mention as they helped create the sovereign debt crisis the EU is in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs#Involvement_in_the_European_sovereign_debt_crisis

So it is very ironic we’re making sure they get their money.

It sickens me, frankly.

Oh, and we don’t have to declare bankruptcy to re-negotiate a deal. You only have to declare bankruptcy if you are completely unable to pay your debts, we’re still a going concern, thanks to the industry of the people of Ireland.

Even if they are international institutions they still deserve that money, we can’t just take it because we claim to need it. We could be brought to court at the very least, since it is against the law. These are the same institutions that employ thousands of people, they’re not just evil bloodsuckers, contrary to what some of the Occupy hippies would have you believe. If we didn’t want to take on AIB’s debt we shouldn’t have bought it, that’s what should be up for discussion not whether or not we should do our duty as AIB’s owners.

I didn’t actually know that about Goldman-Sachs, and the EU ties are a concern, but unless what they did was illegal I don’t see how that gives us grounds not to give them back their money.

And even if we can re-negotiate without declaring bankrupcy, we still need to show that we are in a sufficiently bad way that we are unable to pay back the bonds without serious difficulty, which would be very bad for business.

Unsecured bondholders take a big risk, they loan without demanding collateral because they get paid a lot more interest on the loan. Yes, our last government decided to take over our banks so they didn’t go bust, so now we pay their bills, that’s done now, too late to moan about it. But, things should not have got to the point they got to, and nothing is being done to prevent it happening again. Financial institutions now have been given the message: you mess up, we’ll pay for it, you do well, don’t even pay your taxes! (Goldman Sachs only paid $14m in tax in 2008: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs#Tax_Rate)

I don’t think all the people who work in large institutions are evil, most are just people like the rest of us. I’ve worked in many big institutions, including banks. Same is true of Occupy by the way, degrading them with the ‘hippy’ epithet isn’t fair either. I’ve also supported Occupy in many ways.

I just think that large financial institutions have too much power and freedom, and they use it at the expense of the rest of us. We need more regulation, punishment of those who’ve broken the law, or at least they should be fired for breaching codes of professional ethical conduct.

This will just keep happening if nothing is done to change things, and a defeatist attitude just perpetuates the problem.

Brendan, most of what the likes of Goldman Sachs et al get up to is legal because they or their gauleiters in govt/in the EU/in the IMF/the World Bank/WTO etc etc make it so – Draghi (ECB) – ex-Goldman Sachs; Monti (Italian PM) – ex-Goldman Sachs; Henry Paulson (former US Secretary of the Treasury & architect of the US bailout) – ex-Goldman Sachs; Robert Rubin (former US secretary of the Treasury & prominent instigator of financial deregulation) – ex-Goldman Sachs; Peter Sutherland (heavily involved in the Irish bailout) – currently a chairman of Goldman Sachs; Otmar Issing (a former member of the Bundesbank board of directors and a one-time chief economist of the European Central Bank) – advisor for Goldman Sachs; Petros Christodoulos (current chairman of Greece’s Public Debt Management Agency) – ex-Goldman Sachs; Antonio Borges (former head of the IMF’s European Dept) – ex-Goldman Sachs; Lucas Papademos (PM of Greece) – Governor of the Bank of Greece when they cooked the books with Goldman Sachs

@Uke Gnome

Ok I see where you’re coming from, and I agree they have too much power, I just think that we should be hearing more about this collusion and unethical practice than bickering about whether or not we should refuse to pay the bonds.

@Declan
Since Uke sent me the links on Goldman-Sachs I read up a bit on the revolving door system between Goldman-Sachs and EU/US authorities. I think in a style unbecoming of a keyboard warrior I’m going to cede this argument. I wan’t aware most of these bondholders were financial institutions and not private citizens, nor was I aware of the shady practices of said financial institutions.

Let it be known you’ve given me food for thought :)

@ Brendan, wow, you have indeed broken all the laws of commenting and trolling by ceding and argument! I respect that a lot. I also agree that not enough is being said and done to show something fishy is going on here. As I said, once they know they can get away with it, they will keep doing it. But, after the great depression many laws were brought in to prevent it happening again. The problem is that in the last 20 or so years, financial orgs got them changed or repealed saying they could police themselves, since it was not in their best interest to mess up, but that was a lie, fact is laws with jail to back it up are needed.

Fair play to you Brendan, respect!

Stephen Ukegnome Cummins – spot on!

Brendan, forgot to mention, Griftopia by Matt Taibbi comes highly recommended for a detailed account of Goldman Sachs’ shenanigans. In fact anything by Matt Taibbi (journalist for Rolling Stone magazine) is worth checking out.

Mark we kept getting told that if we “burn the bond holders” we will not be able to access the money markets. I’ve asked before for a list of those countries who have defaulted who have not been able to go back into the markets after burning bond holders. So far no one has supplied one.

Believe me the tax payer will be paying for this, a fair chunk of money we borrow goes to paying off these banking debts. What is going on is utter madness and immoral.

Mark, I think you’ve made the mistake of believing the propaganda.
Can I suggest that you read this article.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/iceland-financial-renaissance-miracle-continues

Saying it will damage our rep internationally has been a device of government to coerce the majority into a submissive austerity. Constantly throwing our future into doubt unless we honour what the banks owe…. It’s bullying on a nationwide scale.. . On a global scale even! We are not the only ones going through this. The country voted for the current government on the back of promises such as ‘not another cent’ – what happened to those promises? We should be holding them to ransom for such a betrayal but instead they get to laugh at us from their lofty heights at the national convention centre after stuffing themselves with meat and drink, while people on the brink tried to stand up for what was right! And in spite of the numbers that have refused to paybthe tax, they refuse acknowledge our issues and just resort to threatening us further. We are a joke to them, they don’t see us as real people, with lives and families and worries, exhausted from too much work where businesses refuse to hire more staff or from
Just looking for work. We are just numbers that can be shuffled around and cut as they see fit, and all to serve something that never really existed.

ehh ive made no mistake the article says well done to iceland for giving two fingers to the bankers…….which is what i just said should have been done is it not?

of course we will be able to access the money markets again the only thing anybody looks for when loaning money is the persons (or countries in this case) ability to pay it back if you aint crippled in debt you have a better chance of paying it back. lets remember the money is not gone its simply moved around so it is out there somewhere!!

@Sean O’Keeffe

I’m not believing any propaganda. I’m out in Melbourne sure, so I’m not exactly reading the Indo every day!

Thank god for the Journal :)

@Mark
Unsecured bondholders are bond holders who have essentially loaned money to AIB. As they are unsecured, the secured bondholders are paid first (its like preference shares over ordinary shares). They only way AIB can get out of paying it is if it and its owners go bankrupt, in which case the secured creditors take AIB’s liquidated assets, then the unsecured guys come in for the scraps. We could’ve let this happen, but we bought AIB by bailing them out (we own 98%), so as AIB is not legally bankrupt it or its owners (us) are legally obliged to pay the unsecured bond.

Thats kinda the lay of the land on this one, we could’ve avoided this by letting the bank itslef burn, but now we’re here we cant let the bondholders burn.