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Dublin: 3 °C Saturday 25 May, 2013

Budget proposals doc had to be shown as ‘constitutional requirement’

Taoiseach Enda Kenny tells Dáil today that draft proposals were shown to German parliament as a constitutional requirement of… the German parliament.

Image: Mark Stedman/Photocall Ireland

TAOISEACH ENDA KENNY has said that he had to distribute financial documents containing details of the Irish economic plans to German MPs because it is a “constitutional requirement” of the German parliament. Speaking during Leaders’ Questions in the Dáil today, Kenny said that the requirement for the Bundestag to see the financial proposals was the same as that required of any country receiving an EU bailout.

The most pertinent document – extensive details of which were revealed by TheJournal.ie which obtained them last Friday – was finally put in the Dáil library as of late last night. You can see the documents themselves by clicking HERE.

Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin accused the Government of “not meaning it” when they vowed to reform the Dáil. He said: “The issue is that the Cabinet’s programme for the economy was shown outside this country before (it was shown to all members of the Oireachtas).” Kenny countered that no concrete long-range proposals had been signed off on for the Budget, to which Martin responded: “Who are you kidding, Taoiseach?”

The Taoiseach was also asked about the reported plans to close some local nursing care units, for example in Abbeyleix and in Portlaoise. He said that many of the buildings inhabited by these nursing units and very old and require “serious maintenance and upkeep” and that he had to take into account what was best for residents and patients. When Micheál Martin told him he should be “ashamed” of himself, Kenny hit back with reference to the EU/IMF bailout accepted under Fianna Fáil’s watch this time last year, saying:

You know something – you should be ashamed  of yourself. I’ll tell you why. I had the opportunity to open a two-teacher school recently that cost €1m. You could build any amount of those with what you did in the middle of the night (referring to the Cabinet being roused to sign off on the bailout at 2am). What you and your party have inflicted on those young people in the gallery (is the shame).

Joe Higgins of the Socialist Party went about Leaders’ Questions in a different manner, setting a “test” for the Taoiseach. He reminded Kenny that on 9 March, the Taoiseach had stood in the Dáil and said: “Honesty is not alone our best policy, but our only policy”. On that note, said Higgins, would the Taoiseach allow his Government colleagues to remain honest to certain commitments in these four areas:

  1. Would he make “an honest man” of Eamon Gilmore who said earlier in the year that there would be no cuts to child benefit?
  2. Would he make “an honest woman” of Joan Burton whose party said that there would be no cuts to social welfare?
  3. Would he make “an honest party” of Labour on not allowing cuts to education/grants/reintroduction of fees?
  4. And would he continue to say the pension levy for job creation would not hurt anyone when the pensioners at Tara Mines have exposed this levy as ten per cent of their “modest €10,000 a year pension”.

Kenny said that Higgins’s phrasing of his “test” reminded him “of the return of Senator Joseph McCarthy” and his questioning during the Communist witchhunt of 1950s America, and those of a “benign parliamentary terrorist”.

He said that the first three questions referred to policies vowed by Labour as part of their pre-election programme. These were renegotiated when Fine Gael and Labour agreed on the Programme for Government after the general election, he said. He said the final claim was “complete fantasy” and that the “temporary” pension levy was providing workers with jobs.

See: The Draft Proposals documented for Ireland as viewed by the Bundestag>

Read: REVEALED: Government’s leaked plans for Ireland’s austerity budgets>

Read all of TheJournal.ie’s exclusive stories on the Government’s fiscal plans for the country>

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Comments (59 Comments)

  • Show Irish economic plans to German MPs because it is a “constitutional requirement” of the German parliament

    Does this mean we are now ruled by Germany, so why do we need an Irish Parliament if Germany are making all the decisions for us.?

    Reply
    • We are, and all thanks to Mehole Martin and the last government. We will be until we reduce our dept to a level we can sustain ourselves.

      Reply
    • We will be forever unless we man up and tell them to p#ss off and stick their euro. Its time to take the pain now in order to avoid the tyranny later…. Its time we made a future for our kids in a free independent country and not a province of greater Germany… Simple truth of our situation… We will become bottom of the foodchain in a Federal Europe. A dumping ground off shore for God only knows what..

      Reply
    • No, thanks to the majority of Irish people ignorantly voting YES in The Lisbon Treaty, thus making toilet paper of what was our constitution. Ireland is no longer a Sovereign state, its President is now the unelected President of the European Union. Regardless of Ireland’s economics future, all Independence and Sovereignty is completely gone, forever. Get used to it, most of you voted for it

      Reply
    • @Paul Kealy. I suppose since the Lisbon treaty is a legal document you can point out the section that caused any of the things you claim? I’ll give you a hint since I actually read it, none of those things are in there. We have people like you claiming that the Lisbon treaty gave the EU too much power and then blaming the EU for somehow not having enough power to stop us from making this huge mess. And the epic stupidity of it all you are calling for us to vote no to a future treaty which might well be in our interests, even before such a treaty exists. All based on nonsense about the Lisbon treaty. Oh and BTW the ‘President’ of the European Council has no real powers of any kind, he’s more like a Chairperson with a fancy title, though given your other ‘facts’ I don’t suppose you’d know that.

      Reply
    • The constitutionality argument can be readily explained if one looks at the FT article today on how the Bundesbank has been stepping in because the ECB is not able to and not willing.

      Germany’s failed bond today, means that the market is no longer willing to go along with the charade that Germany can stop this.

      Germany and the EU are over riding democratic control in European countries. It is playing with fire. A continent that values democratic freedom having that removed is going to explode in protest.

      Reply
    • @Gary Clowny Ill give you a better hint, don’t tell lies and don’t label others as stupid unless you are very sure of your intellectual superiority, or indeed that you actually have any idea what you are writing about other than you heard it on TV. If a Sovereign Nation State no longer controls it’s own Economy, Defence, Justice System and Home Affairs, can it truly be called a Sovereign Nation State any longer ? The answer is quite simply NO Gary. If you had read the Lisbon Treaty, rather than waffling and writing nonsense in EU sound bites you would have actually refuted my claim. Since the Lisbon Treaty was actually in itself a constitution that laid down the foundation of for a new federal state of the European Union, Ireland ratifying the treaty ensured the loss of national sovereignty of each EU state, in legal, political and economical terms, as we have seen fall into place with each passing month. Most of the main negative consequences, such as the eventual tax harmonisation, budgetary control etc are secondary consequences following from the loss of national Sovereignty. The Treaty provided for the appointment of a permanent EU president, elected by European leaders not the people Gary. It also created an EU foreign minister, termed the “High Representative”. This official now has the power to create foreign policy without consulting member states (Um Article 18 but you already know that right?) I could converse about the Lisbon Treaty all day and night, but it would be futile considering you don’t actually understand the issues at hand or have any clue about what the Lisbon Treaty meant to Ireland and other member states. You probably believe that its been great for Ireland and we should be so grateful for all the farmers got and the amazing infrastructure we have? Then again Gary, I wouldn’t expect you to know that exact figures of what we received and what we lost, because that wouldn’t have been on RTE. I guess you are just another one of those sheepish types who believe the EU to be democratic also right? That would explain the failure to accept the ‘democratic’ Irish vote, twice. Actually since Lisbon the Irish voters ability to influence the overall decisions made by their political ‘leaders’ (I use the term loosely) has been reduced from 100% to 1.6%. I guess the fact that the new Italian government is unelected and made up entirely of EU puppets would um reflect your ‘intellect’. But hey Gary Clowny, given that you seem to know everything but actually know absolutely nothing, I guess you wouldn’t have already known those ‘facts’

      “Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.” Jean Monnet (Founding Father Of The EU April 1952)

      Mbaa baa Mbaaaa baaa baaaa! Sheep language, Gary will understand, wont you Gary )

      Cheerio

      Reply
    • You probably believe that “the Europe has” been great for Ireland and we should be so grateful for all the farmers got and the amazing infrastructure we have?*** oopsy daisy )

      Reply
    • @Paul Kealy. My my, hostile one aren’t we. And Gary Clowny… I think someone in primary school called me that once, course I’d imagine we were pretty childish in primary school.
      Now where to start… I didn’t call you stupid. I said it was stupid to call for a No to a treaty that doesn’t exist and we therefore cannot know what would be in it. See the difference? Also to be very clear I’m not claiming to have “intellectual superiority” over anyone. I am looking for facts, which your rants are rather short on and even the ones you posted are incorrect.
      I have no idea how you can make the claim we have no control over our Economy, Defence, Justice System and Home Affairs. Care to show me the lines in the Lisbon treaty that take those things away? Since we’re dealing in facts an’ all.
      “Since the Lisbon Treaty was actually in itself a constitution”. The German constitutional court ruled there was nothing in the Lisbon treaty that created a Federalist state. They are experts in these matters so I assume now you’ll be proving what you said?
      “The Treaty provided for the appointment of a permanent EU president”. Yes indeed, a person with no more power than a chairperson but with a nicer title. Oh and I believe his title is President of the European Council not EU President. Course it sounds more scary to call him EU President and make him sound like he has power over us, when he doesn’t. Btw who elects this ‘President’ and ‘Foreign Minister’? I’ll give you a hint, we do, along with the rest of the EU members. Why don’t you show me the text of Article 18 that so worries you?
      I know exactly what Ireland has gained from the EU from the governments own figures, over 40 billion euro for free. Though I’d guess by the tone of your posts you are one of those that believe the nonsense we gave away 200 billion in fish (presumably gold encrusted fish). Though feel free to backup any of your claims at any stage.

      The Lisbon treaty came into force in December 2009, the recession started over a year earlier. It’s like complaining that your plane was late when the engines had been damaged by a bird strike and demanding to know why the faster wingtips put on afterwards didn’t sort it. They are two different things.

      Seriously though your conspiracy rubbish is just annoying so back it up or shut up. I’ll await your proof for what you contend, won’t hold my breath though.

      Reply
    • @ PaulKealy. People in Europe were not allowed to vote. No democracy in EU and Lisbon destroy all Independence in every country. Ireland loose all freedom, its sad now German control you and everyone. Maybe some day people will see disaster of EU but it will be too late for your next generations. Always the people like Gary, its too late for them like because they have their brains washed. We call them sheep people in Poland too ;)

      Reply
    • @Kasia Sep. It’s the funny thing about conspiracy theorists, they love to call people who don’t agree with them sheep. Perhaps people don’t agree with them as they’re just wrong. Perhaps people need to understand how representative democracy works. You vote for people who’s policies you agree with and they then make decisions on your behalf. You won’t always like or agree with their decisions but in a few short years you can vote for someone else if you feel strongly enough about it. The vast majority of people elected in the EU are pro EU so what should we assume from that?
      Perhaps we should impose our ways on other countries, as our ways are obviously superio. Binding referenda are banned in some countries, like Germany, since they have an appreciation that people don’t always vote in their own best interests. Anyway I’ll go back to my grazing.

      Reply
    • Hello. So ok, you make me and millions of other people everywhere who hate the idea of a federal Europe and dictatorships conspiracy theorists. Because we can think for ourself we are also conspiracy theorists. Because others believe propaganda and politicians and we don’t? You do not make sense to me, sorry. Paul Kealy explained very well and seem to understand that treaty and democracy better than you. You just sound like EU politician to me, we hear it every day, same lies and fairytale.

      Reply
    • @Kasia Sep. No I didn’t say you and “millions of other people everywhere who hate the idea of a federal Europe and dictatorships are conspiracy theorists”. What I am saying is those who believe there is a federalist Europe now against all the evidence to the contrary, including the constitutional court judgement in Germany are possibly conspiracy theorists. That or they have a problem with confirmation bias. You may personally be uncomfortable with how far the EU has gone but the majority have voted otherwise – democracy an’ all that. I hope I sound like someone who’s tired of the bullshit about the EU. It’s funny the EU isn’t perfect by any means and yet the vast majority of the complaining about it is not even based in fact, how difficult can finding real issues be. When someone shouts about the President of the EU when no such role exists I have to wonder right away that they have a clue. Genuinely if someone wants to show me using the text of treaty how the Lisbon treaty caused our problems I’ll admit I’m wrong. Though from previous experience that never happens and as I’ve already explained the Lisbon treaty became law after the recession began so it would also be impossible.

      Reply
    • @Gary Are you having fun with everybody here, this is crazy. Nobody say that EU is now a federal Europe, what Paul and everybody who is not a sheep say is that it is going towards this. Its obvious, with every treaty more power is taken away and sovereignty’s gone, even pro Lisbon people would say this, even some of your leaders say here on tv that they are Federalists, what is matter with you? Democracy? Are you for real? The whole world knows the EU isn’t democratic, even my friends outside EU say that. How can EU be democratic when the people don’t vote and were not even give the choice, just their puppets do what they are told like Italy and Greece. Even when they do vote, they have to keep voting until its what EU want!!!!!!!!!! There would be no EU if every countries people were allowed to vote. Who say Lisbon was cause of Irelands recession problem? When Ireland was given choice to vote their vote was not accepted, you seem intelligent how you write but what you write is crazy!! You seem to be writing your own conversation thats not relevant to this one, its nuts! Paul Kealy explained everything to you, clearly, he even told you the article to read in treaty about sovereignty. The guy even gace you quote from one of them who made the EU how they wanted a Federal EU. You are so brain wash its very very scary for me, because maybe you are the future. There is a president of EU and OBVIOUSLY his powers will get greater and greater, just like EU. Yes I am uncomfortable with EU, like most of its people. I am uncomfortable when unelected idiots decide my future and get more power than elected people. I dont want one law, one tax, one everything which is happening slowly. Im not answering you any more because I think you are just joking because you are writing bullshit as you say. Goodbye sheep man

      Reply
  • Could anybody tell Enda the constitutionality of Ireland having to follow another country’s constitution.

    Reply
    • Unfortunately Article 29.4.10 of our constitution puts an obligation of the government of the day to do what is deemed ‘necessary’ for us to meet EU obligations and gives them the power to do it ,even if such an action can be deemed as unconstitutional. We fucked ourselves over when we voted it in by referendum in 1972. I started looking at law in my course this semester and I was really sickened when it came to the part about EU legislation.

      Reply
    • * It might be the second bottle of beer talking but it reminds me of “V”, the people bought off with trinkets and coin, only to wake up one day and realize that they were no longer free people but under control of an org. that was hostile to their needs. If the full EU union takes place, then we’ll be the Leitrim to Dublin. . You can kiss Foreign investment goodbye and even out shitty politico’s are better than the unelected in the EU, at least they get things wrong half the time, there is some good, the EU wouldn’t give a toss either way, once the votes are out of the way. We’ll be in the arc of stagnation, stuck in a currency that does not meet our needs and politically castrated.

      *I work for myself, have pulled three 18 hr days in a row, so tired now Boss, deserved that beer, even though by writing this, it says I must be feeling guilty about having 2 beers on a work night. Christ!

      Reply
  • Last week enda kenny said tat he had no idea how they got it and now he is saying tat he had to do it…. So more lies enda kenny! Do wat u were elected to do… Be a voice for the irish people, grow a pair already (i never voted for them i voted for someone who wud implement real change)

    Reply
  • Interesting. Given the lack of respect shown to the provisions of Bunreacht na h’Eireann over the bank guarantee that we should show such an obsequient attitude to Bunreacht na h’Un

    Reply
    • Our Constitution was the bench mark that Ireland as a nations stood for and what the people were e.g. the Irish Nation and not just a geographical region. What is INTERESTING is the scant regard or should i say the lack of any credance it has within the irish context given. it should have credance, it should be upholded and amended as necessary by the people for the interests of the people. Nevertheless it now is interesting that it so like many other large volumes of paper means nothing and sits on a dusty shelf for this and prevous government to squander. Bunreacht na h’Eireann RIP.

      Reply
    • In-feckin-deed

      Reply
  • The unfortunate thing in all this mire is that the people on the lowest social payments will suffer. However there is also a problem with FG/Lab in that they must move away from the constant reply given to question in the Dail, example “We are doing this because of FF signing off of the EU/IMF deal” it “FF fault that we are in this situation” etc. Honeymoon over, now answer the questions please. How about some honest politics for a change!

    As for who runs Ireland! Germany seem to be ruling the whole of europe (maybe a poor perception on my part) but this seems a reality. Constitutionaly we are a broken legal entity, WE MUST STAND UP FOR OUR PEOPLE sooner rather than later or we shall be laiden with burden for 30+ years.

    Reply
  • He said the final claim was “complete fantasy” and that the “temporary” pension levy was providing workers with jobs.

    Exactly what Jobs is he talking about???? This man is living in a Fantasy World, wake up kenny and smell the roses for fecks sake.

    Reply
  • So we now live in ” the democratic republic of germland!”…….I’ll get me coat!

    Reply
  • Its don’t what what the frak their constitution says for crying our loud – we DON’T live in Germany!

    Should we start obeying the Russian constitution too or maybe the Iran one too – how about the American one?
    Any other countries we should be obeying?

    Jeasus – Kenny is a right dumb muppet!

    Reply
  • The previous week he claimed he didn’t know how they got it! Talk about diffrent versions of a story!
    Some say “more lies”.

    So much for his election day words of “Honesty is not alone our best policy, but our only policy”. Those words didn’t last long!

    His credabilty is shot to hell. It remains to be seen if the Labour party will decide to go down with him as the Greens did with Fianna Fail. Will they too be that stupid? Time will quickly tell!

    Reply
    • Power seems to scew their ethos from something we thought might be honest, to an “ahh feck it we are in no with big majority” view.
      Greens suffered not because they supported FF, more so because they introduced nothing of sinificant importance to actually help Irish people. Labour have a record of bailing out, but again seems like the almighty pull of power will keep them in for some time…..

      Reply
    • The Greens suffered greatly for one reason in that they were seen to be continuously propping up a party that was growing in hatred by the day and also for the simple fact, they were further seen to be supporting policies that TOTALLY were in conflict of their original green ideology and with the words they had stated earlier pre-election, to the public.

      labour is now going down the same route – clearly they are not learning from history – and at they rate they are going, they WILL pay for it.

      They can’t say they were not warned!

      Reply
    • Maybe, however conflict with Carbon Tax, Cheap TAX for new vehicles, Levies on many things fuel etc was all a green agenda and they made sure that they got them through. They proped up the government because they were in it no real other reason. I dont think there is any doubt that people have lost the stomach for successive terms of whatever government is elected. But the ballot box should be used to elect people who will stand by-with and for the people not a Party Line as is often too evident.

      Regardless, we may be stuck with this government for a while as the majority and cosiness they have wont pressure them to act or vote any other way!!!

      Reply
  • why even bother,, they are just lying lying lying,, Labour have sold their souls if they ever had any, and FG brown nosing the germans who are now their bosses,,, but then the germans not so smart either as they did not cut down on their salaries and are paying to much to a government that cant speak the home language,,, just told my kids take german,, its the way to go,, and for your man in ryan air, gotta love him getting childrens allowance for 4 kids,,, great he says getting paid to have sex,, only in ireland do millionaires get handouts,,,,why cant they see whats wrong ,,, and we would not even need a budget, they could throw money to the poor,,, free education, free medical, and look after our old ,,, not in this budget or lifetime, feel bad for all those who died for ireland , only for it to be given to the germans,,, lol at germany running our budget, and budgies writing it,,

    Reply
  • … off to hunt for my German phrase book… I’ll need it to get to the airport and out of here at this rate of going!

    Reply
  • Dario Fo 23/11/11 #

    Whatever Herr Kenny…

    Reply
  • The German tax payer is making by far the largest contribution to funding our budget deficit so I guess their MPs want to see what we plan to do with their money.

    The alternative is to balance the books. A 25% across the board tax increase should do it.

    Reply
  • You know something – you should be ashamed of yourself. I’ll tell you why. I had the opportunity to open a two-teacher school recently that cost €1m. You could build any amount of those with what you did in the middle of the night (referring to the Cabinet being roused to sign off on the bailout at 2am). What you and your party have inflicted on those young people in the gallery (is the shame). This is so true ….

    Reply
  • Why was my comment removed?

    Reply
    • @Bigbirtha – we ask people to cut down on obscenities, and while you asterisked yours in places, the first one was very prominent and, in my book, one of the worst. If you want to post it again without the c-word, I’d be happy to leave it up.

      Reply
    • How come I can still see it? Not ur c word expletive expletive t….that would be wierd. But I can still see the offending post…it doesn’t offend me btw…but it is definitely THE word that offends people.

      Reply
    • Hi Niamh – are you looking at this article on your mobile by any chance? It sometimes takes a little while to update changes to the comments section there. Thanks for letting me know though – I’ll take a look and see if there is any other reason. Regards, Susan

      Reply
    • Unfortunately the C word is the only one that comes remotely close to expressing what a lot of people feel towards the greed and power hungry excuse for human beings that run our country. The Journal should realise this.

      Reply
    • Yep on mobile…not being smart but I can still see it…wonder is that why I could see two extremist comments yesterday on article re naas mayors resignation….there I was thinking the journal didn’t see them as extremist….might explain it.

      Reply
    • There’s a lot more than two Niamh. Then they go and comment re seff blatter re his racism! Makes you laugh? Or makes you want to cry???

      Reply
    • Jesus Before I get sued I’d like to point out that I only noticed 1 from yesterday. My father always said I’d end up getting arrested!

      Reply
    • Hi Niamh. That’s a bit unusual – I’ll get onto the tech team to try and figure that out. Thanks a million for filling me in on this, Cheers, Susan

      Reply
    • somebody with smarts just told me to clear my cache and that might solve it…hope that saves me the irritation of having to look at white supremicists views in the future…or ever..is that too much to hope for?

      Reply
    • bigbirtha i am not calling you a white supremicist…..someone else entirely. You just used the c word and that is very bold! (:

      Reply
    • Hi Niamh – yes, that should work. There doesn’t seem to be an issue from our side (thankfully! I was a bit worried that deleted comments were still visible..)

      Reply

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