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Dublin: 10 °C Thursday 23 May, 2013

Budget body says Ireland could need €400m mini-budget

The Irish Fiscal Advisory Council says the Budget’s projections for economic growth may have been too ambitious.

Michael Noonan could find himself being handed another Budget document later this year.
Michael Noonan could find himself being handed another Budget document later this year.
Image: Julien Behal/PA Wire

THE GOVERNMENT’S official budget think-tank has warned that Ireland may need a ‘mini-Budget’ later in this year, cutting spending and increasing taxes by up to €400 million, as economic growth falls short of initial expectations.

The Irish Fiscal Advisory Council’s assessment report for April, launched this morning, notes that the Budget’s expectations – that the Irish economy would grow by 1.3 per cent in 2012 – have been undercut by other forecasts.

In its report, the council says it “shares the emerging consensus that growth in 2012 will now be lower than was envisaged in Budget 2012″, though it added that it was difficult to tell, for now, how much the any budget shortfall might be.

Compared to the Budget’s forecast of 1.3 per cent, the Central Bank expects growth of 0.5 per cent, as do the European Commission and the International Monetary Fund.

The OECD suggests growth of 1.0 per cent – though its forecast was made in November, and is the oldest of all the forecasts – while the ESRI suggests growth of 0.9 per cent.

“Using Budget 2012 projections as a benchmark and assuming zero buffers, Council simulations indicate than additional discretionary adjustment of €0.4 billion would be required to achieve the [deficit] target of 8.6 per cent of GDP for 2012,” the report says.

Buffers

It adds, however, that these “buffers” could mean that while an extra ‘mini-Budget’ could be needed to implement these adjustments, a full €400 million of cuts and tax increases may not be needed for now.

Because higher expectations for growth lead to an overstatement in tax incomes, though, the council says Ireland should introduce an extra €2.8 billion in budget adjustments over the next three years, in order to ensure Ireland hits its deficit target of 3 per cent of GDP by 2015.

The next three Budgets had previously been expected to make €12.4 billion of combined tax increases and spending cuts, in order to meet the EU’s target by 2015, but the Council’s suggestion would bring this to €15.6 billion.

The report adds that there is “an unusually high degree of uncertainty surrounding Irish growth prospects”, this was largely due to external factors such as question marks over the economic recoveries in Europe and the United States.

However, the behavioural dynamics – of households, investors and financial institutions – in the ‘post-bubble’ Irish economy are quite some way from being understood at this stage.

Some time is likely to be required before the implications of these elements can be fully factored into a more solidly based assessment.

A further indication on whether a mini-Budget could be needed will come later today, when the government publishes its Exchequer returns for March.

The Department of Finance is expected to publish an interim document later this month in which it will revise its targets for economic growth, which could then include confirmation that a secondary Budget could be needed.

Read: State is overspending by €3,879 per person, according to TD’s sums

Previously: Moody’s: Irish growth to hit just 1 per cent next year

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Comments (79 Comments)

  • You can’t tax your way out of a recession.

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  • Jesus do the overpaid advisers in the Dep of Finance ever get anything right?

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    • Just their expenses…..

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    • Depends on by whom they’re being judged.

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    • Mike Hall, I don’t know if you’ve been in a coma for the past few months, but let me bring you up to date with what you seem to have missed. The ECB has “keyboard money” to the tune of €1 trillion. So much so that the BRIC nations have begun to get very cranky with the whole carry on.
      Unsurprisingly and in line with historic experience, loose monetary policy has resulted in the mass migration of recently seignorised funds from europes uncompetitive economies to the more competitive BRIC nations. While europe is beginning to see signs of liquidity drying up again, the BRICs nations have experienced a liquidity Tsunami, which has caused competitiveness and inflationary problems for these nations. They are now browbeating western nations for irresponsible monetary policies and advising structural reforms. The kind of condescending lecture usually delivered to developing nations by western nations.
      http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/321231/20120329/brics-summit-declaration-pressurise-europe-united-states.htm

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    • Sean
      Looks like the even the IMF could have trouble squeezing a few bob outa these BRIC chaps to prop up the Eurozone. Looks like the worm is turning cartwheels!

      http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0330/1224314097950.html

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    • Sean O’Keefe

      Let me explain what you have missed in your ideological tunnel distorted vision. None of the LTRO money will get anywhere near the Euro real economy. Nor did I endorse it or even mention it.

      The topic of the article is about fiscal policy. My comment was focused on the need for growth stimulation policies in the Eurozone or one by one we’re all going the way of Greece.

      If you understood the first thing about macro economics you might have noticed that. If you spent more time actually addressing the current euro problems rather than ranting away on some pseudo religeous monetary crusade you might learn something & even make an intelligent comment.

      BTW

      Fact one. The financial bubble (one of many in history) & Great Depression of the 30s happened under a Gold Standard system.

      Fact two. There is not a snowball’s chance in hell any major currency either can or will revert to a Gold Standard. Get over it.

      Whilst governments corrupted by the private financial sector have thus far eschewed the full potential of fiat currencies to promote the well being of ordinary citizens & the real economy, the potential for paradigm change is a reality. Once the veil is lifted & citizens realise what a properly functioning democratic government could do, the corruption will be rooted out.

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  • The government will wait until they get their YES vote before announcing there will be no deal on the pro-notes and there will have to be a mini budget

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    • Hope they’re not “banking” (d’ye get it – lol) on a YES vote. Talk of having a mini budget will cement evern further the peoples discontent with and lack of confidence in, this government.

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  • Can someone explain to me why cutting VAT to encourage spending is not an option?

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    • Cutting taxes is always an option. But politicians would have to make difficult spending decisions to offset.

      Politicians and difficult decisions don’t mix well in our ruling parties.

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    • Because Noonan and his merry men and women in the Dept of Finance decided that by increasing VAT to it’s current rate in the last budget that they would bring in an extra €500m or so in revenue. This by the way was uncosted and no one bothered to look at the potential down side of increasing VAT.

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    • Because in neoliberal (rich get richer) economies like Ireland governments only tax the least well off while continuing to provide tax cuts and breaks for the very wealthy and for big business. These policies will continue until the government or the economy collapses, whichever comes first.

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    • @Aaron @Niamh
      I cant seem to work this out either,while i believe that there is a reason for everything this one escapes me
      How does increasing tax help the ecomony all it seems is they are trying to tax their way out of this problem
      While people with money wont spend because of the just in case senerio.
      The amount of job/ business loses in growing all the time.
      surely the needs of the most should outway the needs of the few.
      Who excatly loses out if Ireland defaulted just asking, The rich or the poor.

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    • Well, in fairness to the Germans, they announced this mini-budget in the German parliament a few weeks ago … This article is the first inkling we are getting on this side to butter us up. Its coming, and those FFg/Labour financial terrorists are going to pay for this at the next election.

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    • Because the government don’t do sensible or logical sales will fall by a bigger percentage that vat increase will bring in !!!
      Then again what would a bus load of economists with Ph.D s know more than a few elementary school teachers

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    • Because it makes total sense

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    • It’s hardly surprising that the governments budgetary measures are failing. Economists, such as Gurgiev, had forecast this within days of publication of the budget.
      FG/Lab last attempt at a fiscal correction in 1982 failed for similar reasons. Too much emphasis on tax raising measures and no real attempt to tackle spending. There would appear to be a worrying deficit of economic competence among our current political elite.

      Pages 11-14 of this IMF report address FG/Lab failed fiscal correction of 1982

      Reply
    • The “think tank” actually said it was unlikely that a mini budget would be required, but I suppose that’s not as interesting for the Journal

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  • Our German leaders already told us this !!! Goverment won’t be happy seen as their referendum is coming up and this would be the last thing they wanted to get out

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  • We need another budget for €400 Million. Hnmm? How was it that the state found €3.06Billion of our money (more than 7 times this proposed budget) from NAMA to hand to a bank under criminal investigation for fraud. Thats without mentioning that its illegal for NAMA to act as a bank by lending money.

    But sure since they are firing our our money to pay of Anglo debts, why not tap them for this.

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    • We didn’t find €3.06 billion. We borrowed it from Bank of Ireland who will sell the debt to the Central Bank of Ireland who in turn use it to borrow from ECB. It’s a boomerang instrument. 40 years ago we called it cheque kiting.

      The more things change the more they stay the same.

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    • Was it not stated recently that German banks will no longer accept Irish bonds?

      In their statement yesterday the Peat family made it very clear that the financial plan set out by this administration is failing miserably. They clearly stated that they had a drop in trade which they believed was the result of the VAT increase and the upward only rent reviews, which according to the GaeLab manifestos needed to be overturned as a matter of urgency. So how did ISME come up the figure given in their recent poll regarding SMEs having a more positive outlook thanks to this administrations financial policies. The loss of these 78 jobs is down to this coalition.

      Maybe in this “mini” budget they could put in place a law allowing them take every cent people earned and put food stamps in in wage packets instead.

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  • Budget after budget and cutbacks will never kickstart the economy, people will have less to spend and even those with money won’t spend, any fool can see that. You got to give people the confidence to part with their hard earned cash. Oh how I wish I was younger…I’d be gone! It’s sooo depressing living here.

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  • This austerity plan is working a treat. Revenue drops because no one has any money. Think for a few minutes and the light bulb lights up. “I know lets cut another €400m out of current spending” Clowns.

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  • The government will wait until after the referendum, the one they did everything they possibley could to avoid, before they announce “the ECB will not agree to a deal on the pro-notes” and “there will have to be a mini budget”

    Roll on the good times of jobs and prosperity after that YES vote

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  • “However, the behavioural dynamics – of households, investors and financial institutions – in the ‘post-bubble’ Irish economy are quite some way from being understood at this stage.”

    In other words theydont have a freaking clue.

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    • Actually the ‘behavioural dynamics’ of Ireland’s economy could not be clearer. (But you’re right, they don’t have a clue.)

      Irish citizens are in a massive debt hole paying for the losses of casino banksters, reckless developers & incompetent economists. At the same time being deliberately further squeezed by falling wages/incomes & higher taxes over 4 years.

      So guess what Prof ‘Clown’ McHale (of the FAC)? Irish citizens are cutting spending which reduces GDP & tax income & our ability to pay down public (odious) debts as well. Whodathought?

      The same failed neo liberal ideology policies are being doubled-down all over Europe – our main export market.

      So guess what again Clown McHale & cronies? Yep, they are slowing their spending too, what a surprise.

      If we want growth, SOMEONE has to start spending.

      When the private sector are making it abundantly clear that they can’t, there’s only one sector left eh, Clown McHale & cronies?

      So, as we don’t have our own sovereign currency issuer, we need the Euro issuer to stump up & either keyboard money for something like a Job Guarantee, so unemployed can start spending (most effective) or pay off the odious debts dumped on the public by the banking etc. Ponzi losses. As issuer of currency, the ECB can supply all the required funds without debt or cost to anyone. This would give us time to get growth going, stimulate employment etc., whilst properly structuring the failed Euro system. Or if the neo liberals haven’t the whit or will to do that, organise an orderly break up for the sake of our future prosperity.

      Citizens interested the correct description of the problem & discussion of actual solutions should read Prof Bill Mitchell here: (You will need to put aside all the flawed notions you’re spoon fed that ‘macro’ economics is any way comparable to your household or business – it is not.)

      http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/

      Reply
    • If every politician, retired politicians and presidents, senators, councillors, special advisors and the current president all took a 50% paycut over their term of office they would easily make up the 400 million they are looking at. If they stopped taking their expenses, and stop paying bonuses to and cut the salaries of, the CEOs of semi-state bodies, well I reckon they could make uup the 400 million in 3 years.

      And of course I havent mentioned the revenue that could be generated with proper wealth taxes.

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    • Did I mention that the cost of keeping all those I mentioned above (I havent included expenses, ceo salaries/bonuses, or the well paid heads in RTE) in the manner they feel they are entitled to, is currently over 100 million euros pa. Nice to know where all that hard earned money is going to a good cause!!!!!!

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  • who didn’t see this coming though, honestly?? Is this a surprise to anyone??

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  • More cuts for us and knobhead noonan clears the way for bank bosses to get a rise wtf is going on here

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  • Wow the building is on fire & these lads are running out of water. I really fear for this country now because regardless of what we think or know I think none of these politicians can solve our problems.

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    • Fagan's 03/04/12 #

      Unless there is large debt write off re band debt, distressed mortgage debt and company debt then we are going nowhere.

      That’s basically it. Whether one likes it or not, the levels of debt in the country cannot be managed.

      Reply
  • €400m mini-budget, there is nothing mini about that figure to me.

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  • Will this be the straw that breaks the camels back? Will it fu*k. The good ole Irish people will continue taking it up the jacksie. farewell folks, the markets and economists, bankers and politicians wont be happy until we are bust.

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  • Doh! If we let Homer Simpson do the budget what did they expect? “Hey Marge I’ve decided to tax every cent i can out of the people. Cut spending so that less of them live until the next budget and make sure that those left are unable to afford fuel to get to work or heat their homes… Oh and If I can get most or the productive ones to leave the country our economy will grow by 50 sqillion euro a year by my calculations… Heir Bart agrees with me to!” Idiots should be branded on their foreheads so that unsuspecting people don’t actually make the mistake of listening to them.

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  • WOW another budget? really? what a surprise!

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  • 400 million extra need to reach their deficit goal of 8.6% of GDP for this year. The GDP deficit has to be under 3% by 2015 if the referendum on the treaty is passed or a penalty of .1% of the country’s GDP is imposed

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  • The story I heard on the radio said that they didn’t think a mini budget was needed.. yet this article says they said the opposite?! Someone care to clarify please:)

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    • The government is still going by their original economic growth predictors and as a result are insisting no ‘mini budget’ will be necessary.

      The only problem with that is the fact that most independent bodies have now rubbished the governments original growth projections.

      Reply
    • Ben Gunn 03/04/12 #

      A fiscal adjustment may be necessary if the Government want to be certain of meeting their budget targets. If this new forecast proves accurate, a €400 million margin either way will not throw the fiscal plan off course provided that, if a correction is required, it happens next year.

      Reply
    • It wasn’t the government that said that today. On the news on TodayFM radio I could have sworn the body in this article said they didn’t think a mini-budget was needed and instead said cuts to the capital spending project would be sufficient and would avoid such a budget.

      Reply
  • jimbo 03/04/12 #

    Is this the money the need to pay the bankers bonuses next year nicr article in the indo about that

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  • I wonder would say an emergency levy of maybe 200euro on the HHC cover this shortfall,seems a tad convient that this comes out after so many register.

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  • Let’s just go ahead and say that from now on and especially if a yes vote on the ref, that Ireland will commence with two budgets each year. Flocking sick of this shit. Vote no!!!! Save the country!!

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  • well if we all vote no to the treaty then we wont be bound by it and wont need to be at 3% of GDP in 2015. So lets all vote no and we wont need a mini budget this year then :)

    and like all of those who posted about the VAT i too agree it was a decision not thought out at all and should be reversed in the next budget. people can’t spend what they don’t have simple economics really

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    • Just as a matter of interest Nuala, where will be at in 2015 if we follow your advice ?
      So we’ll run with your plan for a moment, We’ll cut tax, quit the austerity cos we no longer have to get the deficit below 3 per cent, We won’t pay any bond holders or some which ever you choose.
      But we are still running a huge deficit, How do you plug the gap ??
      Who do you imagine is going to lend us money ?

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    • Running a deficit isn’t automatically a bad thing and is normal in the recession. It’ll go away when the world economy picks up, we just need to keep borrowing until then. If it wasn’t for the bank guarantee we could have kept borrowing on the normal markets, and we still can keep borrowing because if Ireland goes tits up, it’ll impact the rest of the EU.

      Austerity does not work. It does not recover an economy. We shouldn’t allow our future to be held at ransom by the Troika who are trying to enforce illogical, ideologically charged political decisions on our country.

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  • So correct me if I am wrong. The Fiscal committee appointed by the goverment say we need a mini budget but the goverment disagree?? Or is it that they will agree after they have got their yes vote.

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    • Dearbhla, they actually told the government that it is unlikely a mini budget would be required.
      Anyone who listened to the report yesterday would have heard this.
      I suppose them saying it is unlikely actually means there is still a chance, which is the way it is reported here

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  • @Gavan
    “to ensure Ireland hits its target deficit of 3% of GDP by 2015″
    Hi Gavan, I may have this wrong but would appreciate if you could confirm for me please. If the Fiscal Cimpact gets a YES vote in the upcoming referendum does that mean that we will then have to reach a new lower GDP deficit of 0.5% by 2015 ensuring harsher budgets between now and then? Thanks..

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    • Hi David (and others),

      I might begin by pointing out that, first of all, the 3%-by-2015 deadline is NOT part of the EU-IMF budget that we’re part of at the moment. That deadline (originally to be met by 2014) was part of what is called an Excessive Deficit Procedure (EDP), something which already exists under previous EU law. Ireland was part of one of these procedures since 2008 when the government finances began to deteriorate so dramatically. There are plenty of others, including Spain (that’s why there was uproar when Spain decided, last month, that it would unilaterally ignore the EU’s targets for now), who are also part of these.

      The Fiscal Compact gives countries getting out of an excessive deficit procedure (which Ireland would do in 2015) three years to meet the Compact’s rules. So, currently Ireland has until 2015 to get to 3%; it will therefore have until 2018 to get within 0.5% as required by the compact.

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    • Thanks for clarifying Gavan.

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    • ^ The problem is there is no objective measure of “Structural Deficit”.

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  • jimbo 03/04/12 #

    Cut vat back to 21% then people might spend no so hard to do is it…

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  • This is the single most stupid thing I’ve read all week. There’s not enough growth – we may need more austerity which *almost always hampers growth* to fix it. Just for this, this panel of “Experts” should be dissolved permanently as they are either vastly incompetent or are too full of right wing vested interested to be useful.

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  • EDP report

    http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/economic_governance/sgp/pdf/30_edps/communication_to_the_council/2011-08-24_ie_communication_en.pdf

    The only way the 3% can be achieved is by similar “mini budgets” and taking more from working men and women.

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    • I dont see it like that. Even though it maybe very difficult the public sector will have to be destroyed. It look likes we cannot afford our hospitals our roads our social welfare or any of the things we take for granted. This is truely frightening but I think it needs to be debated seriously. I think we will see a colapse in our social fabric & many people myself included will be left to the wolves. We cannot make these numbers on our present coarse & I think we as citizens should be debating this amongst ourselves & not include the politicians. We must fix this ourselves. As a people we have the capacity. As politics goes we dont.

      Reply

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