They probably expected emigration amongst people in their 20′s to be far more than it actually was.

Just on the taxi issue, who reimburses staff for petrol if they do drive people (petrol is very expensive and should staff pay for this?) and would this free up staff to do something else?

All HSE patients/clients generally have to be escorted to wherever they are going, for health and safety reasons, which is fine, but many staff would be more than obliging (our good Irish nature) to bring the clients themselves without needing to be reimburst for petrol etc, but due to “red tape” this is disallowed ….. I think we have gone a bit too far with all this health and safety and its just costing us money, in my opinion anyway :)

What about insurance ? you can’t carry people on ordinary insurance. While a good nature is lovely I don’t see why a worker should incur these kind of expenses. Some carers are on minimum wage and if this was introduced it would clean out their wage.

I’m not suggesting a blanket remedy and of course this will not be an option ALL the time but this is exactly the problem, it depends on the situation, this is obvious, but I think we all get the general idea, savings SHOULD be made wherever possible,( depending on the situation), the taxi issue is only 1 of a long long list of areas where money is wasted. Lets look at children’s allowance? Not properly regulated at ALL! Why do people who’s kids are in care of the HSE, why does the parent who no longer still have their child living with them still receive the benefit? Bad bad government managing!

Brassers every last one of them. Our tolerance of dodgy politicians knows no limits. We are surely the most remarkable people on this planet. It’s only a matter of time before the ordinary people of Ireland (or should that say extraordinary people of Ireland) are awarded a Nobel prize.

Ah Rodrigo, we may yet.. The Nobel Peace prize is quickly descending into farce anyway so while it may no longer hold the same prestige, we certainly would deserve it for our stoicism..

Spot on Sarah. Didn’t see the media picking up on that either . At the pensions that FF minsters gave themselves before they jumped a sinking ship.

You mean like the post offices in London years ago were full of the Irish? That sort of way?

being a foreigner I can certainly understand your sentiments, as I have foreigners know my own country that enjoy way more benefits than they are due. (from Malaysia)I believe all countries so have the right to regulate who enters their borders and if the person will bring about any productivity to it. just to keep in mind some of these people may have had paid taxes, held jobs, lost them, have a life going on here with family as well. The only difference would be their skin colour. Am I somewhat right that there would be many jobs locals won’t take because they seem themselves too good for it, and these are subsequently taken up by foreigners

The post offices in Poland are not full of Irish people?

@Sandra

Ahh yes, its definitely the foreigners fault that Ireland is in the mess its in. Let me guess, they pi** in your pool as well right?

Just as a matter of interest how many Polish post offices have you been in Michael?

Understand your anger, everyone looks for someone to blame. During the week it was social welfare scroungers and now it’s foreigners. A lot of them worked here paid their taxes and bought houses so are entitled to these payments like everyone else.

?20, 000 on avg for each person claiming and immigration running 72,000 per month, unemployment close to 15%
as a taxpayer it is something to be concerned about.

if I want to emmigrate I have to be edcuated skilled and prove I’m a desirable asset before being considered and enen then I’ll still have to jump through hoops to get anything more than a resticted work visa.

what is our immigration policies ?

You’re not a nurse or a doctor so Tom? No hoops for us! Sign the line, here’s your visa. Simples.
Fact is these “foreigners” are more entitled to their benefits than many Irish people who have never worked a day in their life. Tackle those, then talk about why foreigners are here taking our wimin, our money and our drink.

An ill informed comment. Foreign nationals are subject to the habitual residency condition rule. This means that they must have tax contributions for 52 weeks OR have been living in the state for two years and have strong connections and a reason to be in Ireland . This idea that east Europeans come to ireland and directly claim the dole is a myth and is impossible within the current welfare requirements. Those foreign nationals you see queuing at the post office were probably like a lot of Irish people in employment up to the downturn.

Untrue, you have free movement in the EU to work in other European countries. No skill/educational requirement or language.

I don’t know what Post Office you go to. Perhaps you would like to tell us? The percentage of foreign nationals on welfare is so marginal compared to Irish, and those that are foreign more than likely worked and contributed to the state to qualify for their benefits now they find themselves unemployed. Every where you look there are foreign nationals who have come here and managed to find work because they are prepared to do any job unlike a lot of the ”free hand out members club” who que every week and have never worked a day in their lives. For a lot of people Social Welfare is a lifestyle choice and until the Government introduces measures to make being on welfare undesirable, such as food/fuel vouchers instead of free money to splash out on booze and cigarettes, the cycle will never end. Funny how most of the people doing lower paid jobs are foreign nationals, while certain types of Irish Nationals would prefer to sit back and collect their weekly free money claiming that there are no jobs out there!

Tom, you can leave and work in any of the other 26 countries of the EU in the morning if you like. No need to jump through hoops. No visa required. Apply for job, get it, sit in plane. Done.

the real problem is payment to people no longer living here i know of. 3 family’s gone home to Romania 4 years ago and still. getting paid. . .

Well then, John, it’s simple. Report them. Or could it be that you’re spouting crap?

Right, you may know those Romanian families. You may have known them to be scroungers while they were in Ireland. But if they’re gone four years, how the hell do you know what they’re still claiming for, or if they are still claiming? Can you see into their bank account or something?

How do you get €20,000 on the dole?
Living near Dublin, I have a couple of friends on disability benefit who get less than €12,000 per year.. They really could do with some extra, what are they missing out on that brings them up by €8,000+ per year?

I don’t think the Irish went abroad for the generous social welfare systems. Rediculous comparison and also wrong.

Start chasing these multi nationals that operate here just to dodge paying taxes. Google, Apple etc. Enough is enough. We wouldn’t have much of a short fall then…

True they do come here for the lower tax. But without them the dole queues would be a hell of a lot longer. There’d be much less money spent in the shops. There would be less PAYE and USC being paid in and more SW being paid out. If people have no job prospects here, they leave. Less people renting = more empty houses and apartments = more landlords with less to spend to keep the shops open.

It’s a big circle. Yes, we lose out on the corporation tax. But by getting these companies in, Ireland can at least get some benefits rather than none.

Hang on..
We have the lowest corporation tax rates in the EU right? certainly lower than most western nations. This makes us more attractive for multinationals, yes?

Only these multinationals aren’t even paying the tax rate that attracted them here, they’re paying far less. Surely if they were simply asked to pay their dues they’d still be getting it cheaper than elsewhere? Why would they run off somewhere where the headline rate of tax is even higher?

I read an article yesterday about Lush Cosmetics being deemed the most tax compliant company in the UK. They paid more tax on their profits (which were in the millions) than Amazon did (their profits were in the billions).
The founder of Lush said that he had accountants constantly telling him ways of how to avoid this or that tax and maximise profit, but his feelings were that if you owe it you owe it, and that perhaps it’s this culture for tax avoidance that’s responsible for so much hardship.

Maybe all these loopholes need closing – WORLDWIDE. Dishonesty is being rewarded the world over, it’s time that changed.

Typo above Should be US. ( AMERICA)

Seamus,
They are based here because of the low tax.
They do pay tax here, as well as employ irish people.
If we raised the tax, they would leave and we would lose what tax they pay.

This is why you got red thumbs. Because the majority of people think that chasing the big Corps away wouldn’t be vary clever.

I think your reading the British media hype this week and interpreting it for Ireland.

This boils my blood.
No one is requesting that these multinationals pay more tax – no need to raise the corporation tax rate.. Just get them to pay what they’re meant to be paying! Close the loopholes.. Lets them pay that 12% rather than the 1-4% they’re paying now.. Simple.

Seamus,
I didn’t say they pay 12%, I said that the amount of tax that they pay, amounts 12.6% of the total tax take in this country.
Not including the PAYE and VAT paid by their employees.

They are not here because we have nice green fields. They are only here for the low tax.
Raise the tax and they will simply go where they will pay less than ours.
Then we’re left with a 12.6% shortfall.

If you can come up with a way of letting us keep the €4b per year that we get from them, please do tell us.

Seamus,
Where did I say you were a SF supporter?
You really need to read posts before replying to them.

So Sorry for having no time for these companies who exploit countries like ours. Because we have had successive governments who were fundamentally corrupt and lined their own pockets.

We call ourselves a republic, A republic serves its people, when people are afraid of their government its called tyranny .( A good post from earlier the week).

4 billion is a drop in the ocean for these companies. Losing 60% of your income due to austerity measures imposed on us by a weak government who caved in to f….g big gamblers who lost is not funny.

You’re moving onto a totally different debate now.
This isn’t about the moral hazard of large Corp’s. Nor is it about politicians.

You want to drive away €4b from our economy. 12.6% of our total tax take. Just because you don’t like Corp’s?

If you think austerity is bad now, have a think about how bad it would be if we lost 12.6% of the countries income.

Where do you think the austerity would fall?
You’re banging the wrong drum on this issue.

The morality of Corp’s is a different debate. We need their taxes.

This all reminds me of one of the Roman emperors, I think it was Augustus, but I’m not sure.
He realised that tax take was down, and instead of raising the level of taxes, he lowered them. Everyone thought he was mad.
His logic was that people couldn’t afford the taxes, so instead of paying some of it, they paid none.
By lowering the taxes, it lessened the punitive nature of taxpaying. More people paid tax, and the income to the Empire increase significantly.

@Danny your argument is unbelievable. Low tax rate for these companies who make I might add a make a very questionable donation to this country, whose products are not available in the very country they reside in Hello.

2. If I reneged on my agreed tax rate Danny , where would I go ??. 12% was it not ??. Your argument holds no water they only pay 4-5% so we logically the citizens of this country are making up the rest.

3. Now Danny try and answer this one ??? . What exactly does the missing 8% translate into monetary terms to the Exchequer and the citizens of this country.

4. Would we have had such savage cuts like that if they paid what was agreed Danny. ???

5. If they could get away with it they would no doubt like to have a zero tax base here.

Seamus, can I ask what google product you are on about? If it’s a Nexus, Currys have them.

For Gods sake Seamus, would you read the posts.

We take in a total of €31b per year in taxes.

Corp tax brings in €4b, or 12.6% of our total tax income.

It’s not hard to understand.

If we raise Corp tax, these companies will simply move to another country.
Do you understand that?

It makes no difference if their products are available here. None.
They are here because they can legally pay a low rate of tax.
That is the only reason they are here.

In doing so, they give us €4b per year that we wouldn’t have if they weren’t here.

Try to understand.
Where on earth are you getting this 8% nonsense from.

Ask yourself this, has anyone posted a comment and backed you up on your stance? Does that tell you something?
Are you the only person in Ireland that is right?

Everyone in the country knows that our Corp tax rate brings us a larger tax take than if it was higher. Everyone except you.

It’s not hard to understand. But your blind hatred of Corp’s is blinding you to the obvious.

Seamus,
I mentioned SF earlier because they were the only group in the past 13 years to call for Corp tax to be increased.
Gerry Adams was lambasted on his leaders debate for the 2002 GE for this stance.

They realised their mistake, but couldn’t u-turn to save face. They then u-turned finally just before the 2007 GE.
They have change their mind so much, that they, along with the Unionist want a similar tax rate for NI. They are both lobbying the UK Gov on this.

I’ve yet to hear an argument from yourself that would justify raising Corp Tax.

You are right Danny they will clear off,

I will type this again what was the agreed tax rate they are supposed to pay (Danny the corporation tax). In real terms what are they paying ???? 4-5% ?? not the agreed amount of 12%. You do the maths Danny.

Then, what exactly does the missing 8% translate into monetary terms to the Exchequer and the citizens of this country Danny.( We take in a total of €31b per year in taxes.

Corp tax brings in €4b, or 12.6% of our total tax income. ) What would would it be if they paid 12%.as per the agreed terms. Simple question Danny I want to know ???.

Danny no where in my posts does it say to increase it. You did IMPLY earlier that I was a Sinn Feinn supporter. If they pay the 12% like agreed and not the 4-5% they are in fact paying. I would not be calling them tax dodgers.

Very similar stunt that Apple pulled in The US lobbying the government for lower taxes. While posting obscene profits yearly.

Seamus,
The PAYE rate is 42%.
Do you pay 42% of the total of your earnings?
If you do, then you need to see an accountant right away.

You don’t see people up in arms that PAYE workers aren’t contributing the full 42%? Do you?

Someone on €30,000 pays 16% instead of the 42%. It’s called the effective tax rate.

The 12% rate is similar. There are tax breaks and various other vehicles that bring it down to an effective tax rate. Which is the 4.5% you are talking about.

No rate is a set in stone rate. Not for anyone or any company.

An you quote me where I imply this?
I’d be very interested to find out what I’m really thinking, as you seem to be able to mind read me.

Does my post above explain “Effective” tax rates well enough for you to grasp? Or shall I post a longer explanation?

Let me explain it another way.

In France, the corp tax rate is 33.33%
Their “Effective” tax rate is only 6%.
The UK is similar.

Which rate would a Corp want to pay? France’s 6% or our 4-5%?

Are you starting to understand?

Take France.
A company posts profits of €100m
They pay €6m? How so if the rate is 33.33%?

With loop holes and tax breaks, not all profits are taxable. So in France, this company can clear €82m as non taxable.
They then pay 33.33% tax on the remaining 18%, €6m

In Ireland, €60m of the same company profits is non taxable. A much smaller amount I think you’ll agree.
They then pay 12% tax on this, €5m

the effective rate in Ireland is 5%, in France it’s 6%.

So you see, they do actually pay the full rate in each country, yet the amount is almost the same.

Ah Danny, skipping the question again . TAX Breaks another tax dodge. I certainly don’t avail of any tax breaks. Fancy yourself a bit of a politician Danny. You need to read up a bit more on Neo Librelaism to understand my hatred of big business and their tax dodging scams. Tearing up regulation so they can have a free run at ripping everyone off to post big obscene profits yearly.

(The PAYE rate is 42%.
Do you pay 42% of the total of your earnings?
If you do, then you need to see an accountant right away.

You don’t see people up in arms that PAYE workers aren’t contributing the full 42%? Do you?

Someone on €30,000 pays 16% instead of the 42%. It’s called the effective tax rate.

The 12% rate is similar. There are tax breaks and various other vehicles that bring it down to an effective tax rate. Which is the 4.5% you are talking about.

No rate is a set in stone rate. Not for anyone or any company.)

Stop making excuses and comparing the PAYE worker with big business . When they tax dodge we pay period.
I already know about the rates in France and the UK and the rising levels of poverty in each of those countries..

Do you not have a tax free allowance like everyone else?
Like it or not, that is a tax break.

So you do avail of tax breaks. You don’t pay 42% of all your earnings, do you?

I couldn’t be arsed about Neo liberalism, I only care that our country can raise as much money from these companies as they can.

If you know so much about French and UK tax, how do you not understand the basics of effective tax rates?

A company is treated the same as an individual when paying tax.
You might not like that, but that’s the way it is in every country.

Everyone get a massive tax break in the form of tax free allowance and tax credits, but you don’t seem to be able to grasp that.
It is a tax break, whether it’s called that or something else.

And there’s the problem Danny.
Why say the tax rate is 12.5% when it’s really going to be 4%?
Why not just call it 4% and be honest? The smaller businesses who don’t have an army of consultants and accountants to find them the tax dodges pay their fair share.. So why shouldn’t the guys making billions?

Again, I refer back to Lush Cosmetics. £20m in profit, £8.9m in tax.
Amazon, over £1bn profit, £1.9m tax.

YOU do the math.

Okay, let me ask you this.

Where did Vodaphone pay this £1.5m?
To the UK revenue?

Why was that do you think?

Was that all of the tax paid by them in the entire world?
Or maybe, just maybe, did they send their profits to Holland, or here and pay the corporation tax in some other country at a lower rate than the UK.

When you read the British media talk about only paying so much tax, it’s only tax in their country. It’s how much they pay to the UK. The British media don’t care if Vodaphone sent their money to Ireland and paid tax there. They’re only concerned that Vodaphone only paid £1.5m to the British revenue.

Let me ask this also.
In the eyes of the revenue, does sole trader get a different rate than a large Corp?
Think about that before jumping in with an answer.

I’m a sole trader. I have no employees but myself.
I invoice others and get paid.
Out of this money, I deduct my expenses. I work offshore on the North Sea. I pay flights and accommodation.

Do I pay the full tax rate on the remainder? I call it wages, but it’s actually Profit.
No, I don’t.
I’m entitled to tax free allowance and tax credits.

My extremely small company is the exact same as a large company.
Should my profits be treated differently to others?

They also have tax free allowances, just like me. And you, if PAYE.
No one pays the full rate anywhere.

Name one country where the full rate is paid?
Anywhere?
I look forward to the answer.

Shanti,
The rate is 12.5% of the taxable amount.
There is a difference between all profit and the taxable amount.

The exact same as someone on €30,000 pa pays 16% tax instead of the full rate of 42%.

I’ve explained all this in the many posts above that no one seems bothered to read.

In this instance they are talking UK, but the principle is the same. Please read what the guy who runs lush had to say..
http://m.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/dec/07/shop-ensure-your-cash-isnt-tax-haven

As I said, they don’t claim that Vodaphone didn’t pay any tax at all, it’s just that they didn’t pay it to the UK.

Is that fair on the UK?
No.

Do I care if it’s fair?
No.

I couldn’t give a rats arse to be honest.
If the money wasn’t paid to the UK, there’s a good chance some of it was channeled to us here.

That meant we got tax revenue that the UK should have gotten.

So it comes back to the original question by Seamus.
Why don’t they pay the full 12.5% on all profit, not just taxable profit?

Because if we change our effective rate, they will go somewhere else to get a better rate.

So it’s a toss up between our 5% effective rate and receiving €4b in revenues…

Or forcing them to pay 12.5% on all profits and then getting nothing because they have fecked off to Holland….

I know which is better.

Unfortunately, Seamus would rather have us thrown deeper in recession by €4b pa because he doesn’t like to companies.

I’m still waiting on even 1 country in the world that charges the full Corp Tax rate.
I’m not looking for a list of countries, just one will do?

Again Danny – here is where YOU brought up Vodafone. No one else mentioned them. Not even the guardian article I linked mentions them.
It mentions LUSH COSMETICS paying £8.9m out of their UK SALES profit.

AMAZON, subject to the same tax rules as LUSH, paid £1.8m on their £2.9BN UK SALES profit (so, less than 1% as I estimated above).

Lush pay full tax in every country they operate in, even Ireland. So you can bet they pay their 12.5%. M&S and Debenhams are pretty good for tax compliance too. But Starbucks, Google, Amazon, Apple etc.. They are super powerful profit machines for a reason – because they will do anything, no matter how dubious in ethics, to maximise profit.

No mention of Vodaphone or £1.5m, those came from you. And had you read the article, you would have appreciated the point I was making.

Where have my posts gone?

It’s seals of office. Each minister receives it when joining the cabinet.

You’re missing the point. Even if it is 4%, that is still more than the 0% they would be paying if they left.
Would you rather we got nothing, just so you can say “We stood up to the Man”?

They are here because of the low tax, no other reason.

Up until just before the 2007 GE, SF wanted this tax raised. Then they got sense. They realised the folly of their previous stance.
Now, even they want us to fight to protect our low Corp tax.

You’re fighting a lone fight, if you think that raising this tax is a good idea for Ireland.

Seamus, that is worst idea ever. These companies pay tax ( ok it is very low) employ thousands of highly killed workers and attract other companies to invest in ireland. Without these companies, Ireland’s unemployment would be much higher. The people these companies employ also pay taxes ( VAT & PAYE) and so contribute greatly to our economy. Without these companies, how would you propose we find jobs for our graduates and skilled work force???

AAARRRGGGG!!
They’re not paying their full liability. The one that they were attracted here by (because other countries have higher tax rates again), where will they relocate to? Somewhere with higher tax rates?

It has become to culture to avoid tax by whatever loophole necessary. This is how you have Lush Cosmetics paying£8.9m in taxes on profits of £20m, and Amazon paying £1.9m on takes of over £1bn in the UK. LOOPHOLES. These corporations are literally fiddling their books to avoid paying their full liabilities. All anyone is asking for is that they pay what is actually due rather than funnelling profits offshore and whatever other methods they use..

Ah Danny, you are still at it and defending the indefensible . Interesting how you mentioned Vodafone or should I say avoided the question that was posed by another poster on this forum.

Vodafone themselves were taken to court in India for tax dodging when buying an Indian telecommunication company by using dirty tricks to purchase the company outside of India and I say it again Tax dodging. That money could have gone to alleviate some its problem Like POVERTY.

What did the director of that company say about other companies tax avoidance scams.????

Seamus,
I didn’t bring up Vodaphone, another poster brought them up.
If you read my posts on them, you will see my response.

This whole thread started by you wanting the Corp’s to pay more tax.

I explained in detail the mechanisms of effective tax to you.

You still don’t get it, that if we make them pay more, I’ll type it in capitals so you might notice it… THEY WILL LEAVE AND TAKE THEIR €4b WITH THEM

I don’t give a sh*t what they do in India or anywhere else. They are paying €4b pa into our economy that they should be paying somewhere else.
But we are getting it.
Us.
Into our economy.
Helping to pay for our SW, our PS, our schools and hospitals.

If they didn’t tax dodge in other countries, they wouldn’t be here.
Paying us.
Into our economy.
For schools and hospitals.

But you want them gone.
You cannot explain in any detail why, so you have resorted to finding implications in my posts. Calling me a politician, of all things.

When all else fails, just post an insult eh?

Like I said below, I don’t care if they are dodging tax elsewhere, if it means they are paying us instead of some other country, long may it last.

By the way, have you found a country yet that charges Corp tax on the full profits of a country?
Reply when you do.

Profits of a company I mean.

Er, Danny.. Just scanned the thread. You did bring up Vodaphone, you were the only one talking about them til Seamus brought up their Indian transactions.
You say it was another poster who brought them up, but it was you. After I pointed out that LUSH COSMETICS paid more in tax than AMAZON. Despite the massive difference in company size and profit.
If the little, homegrown guy is willing to pay their share, then the big multinational guys should be obliged.

For the record, in the article I linked you to below they mention M&S paid 27%. Lush paid 42%. Amazon, 1%.

See the problem?

Apologies Shanti,
I’d thought you said Vodaphone instead of Amazon, it could have been any company. But my point still stands.

For any of them, where was that tax paid? Was there tax paid to any other country in the EU in lieu of not paying in the UK

If so, was it here in Ireland?

As I had mentioned Vodaphone, didn’t they pay no tax in the UK?
But, did they pay tax in another country?

As for effective tax rates, I’ve explained that all day. If you want, I’ll go into the reasons for tax exemptions too. There are very good reasons for giving tax exemptions to certain large companies. That might have to wait until the morning though.

Have either of you come up with a country that charges the rate of Corp tax to the full profits.
Just give me one.

I can guarantee, that Lush and Debenhams avail of tax exemptions.
They do not pay the full tax rate to every penny of profits.
Find me an article that says they do.

The reason that the larger companies get headlines in the UK is because they don’t pay their tax to the UK revenue.
They move profits to another country, like ours, and pay our lower rate.

Find me that country and we can see if it’s possible.

Reply quick and I’ll go through reasons for tax exemptions.

To quote Lushs founder from the article I linked you to.
“We are big in Japan and have a lot of Japanese staff. There, they absolutely refuse to fiddle their taxes. From the bottom of the company to the top, the staff would absolutely refuse to do it. What we need here is a return to a climate where businesses are not focussed on strange machinations to avoid tax but, instead, on the important things that make you a commercial success.”

But the government needs to take the lead, he says. “It has to set the rules and vigorously enforce them. In some ways, I’m embarrassed that our business came top in the Ethical Consumer survey. Other businesses probably think we’re stupid. We even looked at taking the tax rates paid by all of our competitors over five years, averaging that out and paying 10% more. But even that would have involved us in schemes we didn’t want to get into. It’s the government that’s got to get a lot more vigorous.”

Maybe Japan is a good place to start looking.. And they were talking about paying tax in the country where it is owed, simple. He spoke of the act of moving profits around to avoid tax as one of the methods pushed at him by accountants which he rejected because it felt dishonest. But not all CEOs have these moral motivations (lush are a quite ethical business anyway).

So, basically, you want all these companies to leave Ireland and pay their Corp tax in their home countries?

So we’re back where this whole discussion started?

How would we plug the €4b hole it would leave in our budget?

This discussion isn’t about the morals of companies, rather whether companies based here should pay more than they do in Corp tax.

I’ve said at least twice, I don’t care what they do in other countries. As long as the continue dodging taxes in their home countries and coming to Ireland to pay our rate.

All the Lush exec has said is that they don’t move their money around to a country with lower tax rates. He didn’t say that they don’t avail of legitimate and legal tax breaks. Remember, they are legitimate and legal. Not under the table. I’m talking about Ireland here. I’ve no interest in other countries.
I’ll deal with tax breaks in a moment.

So, is Japan the country that you have come up with?
Full tax rate payable on all company profits?
Are you sure?

Company man : “I want to set up my base in Ireland.

Gov official : “great, do you need a factory?”

Man : “No, we are moving to Poland. The wages for the 1000 workers we need are €20m pa, or €20,000pa each”

Official : “We need workers, but they would need an average of €40,000pa each”

Man : “No, that will cost me €40m pa”

Official : “What if we give you a tax exemption of €200m pa?”

Man : “Cool..! That saves me €25m pa on Corp tax. But the wages will cost €20m more. So I make €5m profit.”

Do we cry about the €25m lost in Corp tax, or do we celebrate that €40m extra is going into our economy? Of which, how much will be direct into revenue coffers as PAYE?

I think you 2 would cry over the loss of Corp tax.

It’s not as cut and dried as you think.
They don’t pay 12.5% on all profits, but maybe that isn’t a bad thing when you actually think about it.

Any response to the tax break scenario lads?

No?

Ah, come on.

You’ve both been quite worked up about this all day. It’s obviously been something that been on your mind for a while? Surely you have thought about the reasons behind tax breaks?

No?

Nothing?

By the way, in my scenario above, if the company posts profits of €335m their exempt from €200m and pay tax on €135m, which is €16.875m.
Leaving an “Effective” tax rate of…….

5%.

@Danny, So drive wages down, low tax rates so we can compete with the bottom feeders of Europe. So Danny how do you make up the difference when people are on low wages eh . Oh wait tax them to oblivion, Oh i forgot that is what they are doing now.

Who suffers then Danny, Capitalism is the root to all evil Danny.

Seamus,
What thread are you reading?

Where have I said drive down wages?
Please. Explain yourself.
I gave a scenario with simplified numbers to make it easier to explain the maths.

Please, explain where I have advocated driving down wages?
I’m sitting here gob smacked that you have managed to interpret any of my posts as such.

In fact, in my scenario, the company is paying double the wages to their employees.

Are we back to you mind reading me again?
My subconscious must be very different to my conscious mind.

Seamus,
I’m still waiting on the one country that charges the full rate of Corp tax, with no exemptions, on all profits.

When will you post it?
I assume that you know where this country is, as you seem to believe that it is common practice to always charge a full rate of tax on all profits.

I really do hope you’ve learned something today.
I doubt it, but I really do.

Things are never as simple as you think.
There are always reasons behind certain policies. You might not like them, but when you delve deeper, the reasons can become clear.
Again, you still might not like it, but you can begin to understand the reasoning.

By understanding the reasoning, then you can begin to come up with plans to fix it.
But, simply saying “why don’t they pay the full 12.5%?”, makes you look foolish.
I’ve given a very good reason above for why.

I’m not the smartest cookie in the jar, so if I can look deeper into decisions, so can you.
This is a common problem on this site. Someone mentions an ill thought out idea and everyone runs with it for weeks.
No one bothers to try to explain why the idea is nuts, because what’s the point. You’d just get abused and idiots start calling you various names.

I was winded off today, 65mph winds 3m swell in the sea. So I had time. I decided I’d had enough of nonsense.

To be honest, you didn’t abuse. You were paranoid, but no abuse.

Good night to you. I’m up at 5.30am.
(hopefully no wind delays)

@Danny, I suggest you read your own posts again. You have been caught out already on this one. S.T.M I think they call it.. Big difference between vodafone and Lush. Bottom line Danny you cant see the big picture in what is driving government policy. Big multi nationals bullying governments to pay low tax rates while posting obscene profits on a yearly basis.

While our tax rates go up and up. close all loopholes no more tax breaks for wealthy multi nationals and freeze the assets of any the wealthy who are hiding money in offshore accounts. BTW our poxy banks aided and abated this service not so long ago.

Seamus,
I made one mistake, one.
I miss read a post and changed the name of one corporation for another. the exact same point stood, whether it was Joe Blogs Corp or Acme Corp.

I admitted my error straight away.
If that’s the only negative that you can find in all my posts today, I can live with that.

Care to comment on how I want wages driven down?

Any sign of that country you think exists?
It must be a fair few hours since I first asked. Surely you can reveal this Nervana to me now. I’m on tender hooks.

We get the tax Danny??. Read up on neo liberalism Danny. You might get a shock. Again its what’s dictating government policy. Come back to me when you have finished reading. I will be waiting.

What are you on about?

We get €4b

Explain yourself.

We get €4b from them that we wouldn’t get if they weren’t here.

That is it in a nutshell.

I don’t need to read about all your conspiracy theories. You’ll be quoting Mr.Corr next.

We get €4b.

That money goes towards dole, hospitals, schools….

Do you want us not to take the money off them? Is that it? So we can say we stood up to the “Man”?
I asked this before today. You haven’t answered.

All you’ve offered up all day is sound bites.
Neo liberalism, etc…

Give me a valid reason for upping our effective Corp tax rate and I will concede.

If you just want to do it because you don’t like the Corp’s, explain how we adjust an extra €4b from our budget.
Include the adjustment we’ll need next year of €3.5b. So you will need to adjust €7.5b.

And any chance of the name of that country that charges the full rate of Corp tax to all profits of a company.

I’m getting tired asking.

Try replying to my posts instead of posting a new comment that I won’t get an alert for.

Do they dodge tax in other countries so that they can avail of our low tax?

Yes, yes they do.

But they’re BarStewards for doing that?

Yes they are.
But we get the tax. Not the UK, not the US, not France….
Us.

We get it.

How is that do hard to understand.

Any chance of that country yet. I’m still waiting.

Conspiracy theories and Mr corr. Lol you are losing the plot Danny. Neo liberalism was discussed at length on the front line during the last election Danny. Ubitquiosly agreed as the current political ideology being followed by governments globally. Mr Corr and conspiracy theories LOL.

Couldn’t agree more.

Seamus,
Let’s go back to the beginning.

You don’t like the fact that they pay 4-5%? Correct?

They pay 4-5% because they end up with an effective rate because they get tax breaks? Correct?

You don’t like that they get tax breaks and believe they should get none? Correct?

I gave a perfect example of an incentivised tax break that benefits the country.

You firmly believe that this tax break shouldn’t be given. That it’s not beneficial to the country? Correct?

Can you break down the figures in the scenario, from the loss of Corp Tax, the increase in PAYE earnings and VAT, and the savings from SW for taking all those people off the dole.

Show me where the tax break is wrong.
I can’t see it, so you must show me.
You may believe its immoral, but how can that be if it gives jobs to 1,000 people.

I’m trying here, but I’m at a loss as to why you won’t explain.

I’ve totally ignored your attempt to put words into my mouth.

I’ve asked you to quote me on the accusations you’ve levelled at me, but you haven’t done so.

Please desist from this nonsense.

Oh, look, I can reply to myself.
If I can reply to myself, I must be able to reply to others….
Mmm… I wonder…

I really need to find the name of that country Seamus.
Post it as soon as you know, okay?

Wee…. This is fun.

Tick tock….

Still waiting.

“Drive down wages”

That’s another buzz word isn’t it? Or words.

If you knew me, you’d laugh at that assumption. Oh dear.
:-)

Oh, by the way, please explain how we don’t get the €4b from Corp tax.

That’s another question you haven’t answered.

Ah, that’s right Neo liberalism…..

This thread was sarcasm.
Just incase you didn’t notice.
There, I’ve gone down to your level.

Sad man Danny.

I hot an alert for the reply…!!

But you didn’t post the name of that country yet?
:-(

Good morning Danny read up on on what Dictates government policy yet. Btw Danny big difference between tax compliance at one end of the spectrum compared to the other. Different set of rules Completely.

Web site conspiracy god Danny, it will be aliens and the x files next LOL.

Good morning.

I see you still haven’t posted the name of a country, any country that charges the full tax rate to all of company profits?

This started because you complained that companies only pay 4-5% of thier total earnings in tax.

It’s been explained to you the reasoning behind this, but you seem to want to railroad the discussion towards Gov conspiracies.

I think you now realise, that No country, none, nowhere, charges the tax on 100% of profit.

Until you can post a country that does, your complaint in the very first post is ridiculous.

Post the name of that country.

That’s right Danny avoid the question you were asked and twist my original complaint to suit your own argument. You should be a politician Danny. You know how to side step and duck.

Seamus,
You haven’t asked me a specific question.

You want to know if I’ve Read you conspiracy websites. The answer is no.

So, I’ve answered that,
Care to answer my question.
Are there any countries in the entire world, that charge tax on 100% of profit?
If you can’t answer that, doesn’t it make a mockery of your original complaint?

It’s quite funny, you saying I haven’t answered a question, when I spent all day yesterday giving you facts and figures.

Name the country.

@Danny, no where did I say raise the the corporation tax, just pay what you were supposed to. you are making excuses for them paying only 4 and coming up with all these lovely facts and figures to support your flawed argument. Again Danny what was the agreed tax rate.??

You Constantly ignore what Dictates government policy by refer

I explained effective tax rates.
You ignore this.

I explained the reason an effective tax rates exist.
You ignore this.

I gave a perfect scenario of how a company can get a tax break, where it benefits the country.
You ignore this.

I’ve asked which country in the world charges the tax rate on 100% of profits, the answer by the way is none. But you know this because you couldn’t tell me any.

You ignore that fact that they do pay the full 12.5% rate on TAXABLE profits.

We’re right back where we started.
Even after all this has been explained to you, you still assume that they should pay 12.5% on ALL profits.

You’re a lost case. You haven’t debated, nor contributed anything to this discussion. Your only contribution is to post about Neo liberalism agendas.

You have even ask in this post, again, why they “Don’t pay the full rate”, so I’m beginning to think that nothing can stick in your mind. Considering I’ve posted all day, the reasons.

We get €4b from them.
If we up the effective rate, they will leave and take that €4b with them.
There are no countries in the world that don’t have an effective rate.

But you want to scrap our effective rate and drive the money away.

You are blinded by your hatred and can’t see what’s in front of you. Read this thread again.
Or, if you can, give me facts about how I’m wrong. Not buzz words.

Have you found a country yet?

Just so yez know its the same figure. A billion is a thousand million.

I’ve just explained in the post above how a tax free allowance works for me as a sole trader with no employees.

I think if your not satisfied, maybe you should break it down for me.

In the eyes of revenue, you and me are seen as the same as a large company.
All 3 of us are separate entities that make money, which we pay tax on.

You don’t seem to quite understand that logic.

You don’t want to think that revenue, or anyone would see you as the same.
But you are wrong I’m afraid.

You have a tax free allowance, I have one. As does a large company.
Just because you don’t understand this, doesn’t make you right.

Try to understand, that not all profit is taxable. Only a percentage.
That money is then subjected to the full rate of 12.5%

I’ve explained this in full today, but you don’t seem to be able to grasp it.

I haven’t read one thing from you that can’t be explained rationally. Yet you can’t seem to put it all together.

Tax is actually quite simple in its basic form.

Thanks Seamus in the lesson in socialism 1.1. This is a joke.

Chris,
Seamus may not believe me, but I’ve been centre Left all my adult life.

The problem is, the extreme left only believe that they are the only left that can exist. There is no in between. Its either extreme left or a Blueshirt wearing fascist conservative.

I’m neither.
I’m centre left, socially liberal on the political compass.

I see he has resorted to shouty type posts below this.

When in doubt, abuse.

Again, I’ll ask you.

Would you rather nothing? Increasing our deficit? Please answer that.

It’s time you stopped reading UK media storms and thinking its the same for Ireland.
It’s not just the big name Corps that are here, the IFSC is full of others you haven’t heard of. They contribute a considerable amount to our tax take.
Without them, we would be in a much worse position.

If its such a sensible option, name a political party, with more members than one man and a Che poster in his room, that thinks you are right?

It’s not even a populist policy by anyone. Reason?
It doesn’t make sense for Ireland to chase them away.

Seamus, I really believe that your grasp of this issue is limited in the extreme.

The tax breaks they use are legal. Would you prefer we sent em off to Hong Kong, and not GDT an ounce of corporation tax, or PAYE? Coz that’s what would happen.

Even if they paid 20% tax it still wouldn’t make us, the workers of this land, any better off cause all that would happen is the politicians would buy themselves bigger iPads, award themselves higher salaries, pensions and expenses. Leave the multi-nationals alone, until we sort out the traitors in Leinster House, the City Councillors who also take huge salaries and pensions, the people who run OUR banks etc. we also need to take back the pensions of the likes of Aherne and Harney. Whatever happened to Harney when it was discovered she was giving the Unions 250,000 a year to treat themselves to holidays etc while screwing their union members at the same time. And that money was from the HSE budget. Did Bertie ever pay, with interest, all the tax on the donations he received? The more money Leinster House has coming in the more they keep for themselves. Can anyone explain to me why, a nation of approx 4.5 million people needs to have Government Jets, when people don’t have enough money to keep the roof over their heads or put food on the table. These people work for US, we should tell them what to do, not Merkel.

Seamus,
A quick search on tells me that our Corp tax take in 2010 was €3.923b. Out of a total of just over €31.75b tax income.

So the Corp tax was around 12.6% of our total income.

Would it make sense for us to chase to away?

Think about that. I’d love to hear how you would make up the short fall of 12.6% in next years budget.

But Danny, you wouldn’t immediately be losing all of that. Our corporation tax rate is very low. At worst, you’d lose some, but make up the shortfall in taxes from others. In reality, a raise of 1-3% would still encourage businesses still. It would help filter out those who only have fronts for their US and otherwise operations in Ireland for tax reasons, from whom we don’t make that much off. The businesses actually hiring and doing business here are actually what is valuable, and even if they may protest a bit, they would most likely rather pay 1-3% extra if it benefited out economy and allowed them to sell more.

That’s assuming they aren’t all Austrian/Chicago school zombies of course, which might be pushing things a bit. But nonetheless, the set-up we have now is far less than ideal. We would be better off growing our own business, this would be an avenue of job creation for the government to look into but frankly, they don’t care.

Leigh, many small Iridh tech companies are at s great advantage having these companies here.

Sorry Irish

Leigh,
It’s a valid point to make, but, and here’s the problem.

We make €4b in Corp tax. That’s out of the clear taxable profit of €32b.
There are a number of tax exemptions allowed on the profit, before the remainder is deemed taxable.

The majority of that money isn’t Irish based. But overseas Corps.

If we increased the effective tax by 1.5%, that would bring us above the levels of UK and France, to name 2. Probably a lot more as well.
The overseas Corps would leave.
There’s no question about that. They would leave.

We would lose out.
This is why the French and the UK grumble constantly about us.
This is why SF and the Unionists want to have a similar effective tax rate in NI.

It’s not our indigenous companies that is contributing the majority of the €4b, but the large Corps.

There are no parties, or lobby groups in Ireland that want a raise in the effective tax rate. And that’s for a reason.

We’d lose 12.6% of our tax take.
Think about it for a minute. Stop digging a hole for yourself.
That doesn’t include PAYE and VAT paid by their employees.

To cover this shortfall, we’d have to lower SW by over 20%.
Is that what you want?

Seamus we have all taken cuts but your argument would lead to economic suicide,