No sh2, Sherlock McWilliams

tongue in cheek Kerry ? :)
I love Spain , the beauty of it’s culture and cpeople , it’s traditions and it’s people … Vote NO and support the ordinary workers of Europe Vote No. Enough is Enough .

Further prove that you haven’t got a clue what you are talking about.

@ Caroline

Quite so.

Even in its own terms of reducing the deficit austerity does not work. Government spending is part of the economy, buying many services from the private sector besides its own direct activities. Austerity thus contracts the economy & the tax take goes down as a result & becomes self defeating. This is happening in Greece, Spain, UK & elsewhere.

The finances of a country are not the same as those of a household or business. In the long run debt is not repaid, but rolled over & increases over time as an economy grows. In fact it has to, to allow an economy to grow. This is true of all countries.

What matters is the ability to pay the interest. So it is not debt in absolute terms that matters, rather the debt to GDP (economic output) ratio.

This is why austerity doesn’t work. Whilst the deficit can be reduced by starving the economy & creating mass unemployment, the GDP goes down faster, so the debt +ratio+ tends to either stay the same (for small/short term reductions) or get worse.

Even if it could work to reduce gov debt burdens, we suffer the massive losses in real prosperity, production of goods & services, that high unemployment represents (besides the obvious misery of those actually jobless). The effects on the whole society of sustained unemployment run deep & long & end up being a huge cost to everybody. Few in the media ever talk about this. Think about it. That increase in jobless from 5% to 15% means foregoing about 10% of goods & services – or about €15 billion per year of them

In the usual ‘PR’ way, telling lies or omitting the truth, of politicians, Ireland has not met its deficit reduction targets. It’s just that the targets have been higher than the Troika required. It met those but exceeded its own.

But Ireland is unique in Europe. It is really two economies. The foreign multinational sector, both in terms of production facilities & booking sales/profits (to avail of our low Corp Tax rates) is massive compared to the domestic economy. So the effect of austerity has been slower, but also hidden. If we look at GNP, domestic output, rather than GDP which includes both sectors, the debt ratio is increasing substantially as GNP continues to fall at pace.

At best we are looking at many years (a decade at least) of stagnation & high unemployment, more emmigration of our young people. More likely, as more EU countries crank up their own austerity programs & our export sector stalls, the economy will get worse.

There is no need for any of this.

Countries with their own currencies are not subject to control by private debt ‘markets’ gouging high interest rates & limiting our ability to borrow sufficiently to stimulate the growth we need & break out the downward (vicious) spiral.

The reason is because they are currency +issuers+ & ‘markets’ know that borrowing & paying interest is an ideological choice. These countries’ central banks set the interest rate & that’s it, not ‘markets’.

Of course, the Eurozone has its own issuer of currency, the ECB, which, if re-mandated, could perform exactly the same function. Either lending at the same low rates other non-euro countries enjoy, or, in fact, issuing debt free finance for a period, to allow Euro countries to restore growth.

The only reasons this isn’t happening are political & ideological, driven by the vested interests of the top few percent financial sector & wealthy elites, for whom their is no austerity, indeed, the opposite, they are gaining by our loss.

As others have said. Enough is enough.

Vote NO to begin the fight back to demand our democratic rights.

PS if you want read a good, more complete analysis, Prof Bill Mitchell:

“The UK Gov in a race with the Eurozone to ruin their economies.”

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=19179

Well written Mike…

@Mike, a good point well made, thanks for the link I will get around to reading it.
@Obligpic go and sit in the naughty corner and read Mike’s post you naughty little fascist ( are you Dave Higgins Avatar?)

“When all of us stand together and say No”

Say no to what exactly Susie?

Say NO to the ”stability treaty ” . We here in Ireland should show our support of the ordinary people across Europe who are suffering austerity just as we are.

Given the trillions that has already been printed the euro should have a lesser value but strangely it hasn’t. Isn’t the “free” market just great? Oh dear….

I’m on the first boat to Australia if the country is being ruled by europe. I’m voting No

Spain is not in a bailout, its borrowing on the open market. But the Socialist party doubled the national debt and now they are struggling to handle the interest. They have to cut spending because at the moment they are spending money they do not have and the lenders are raisining the interest rates. Its not Europe that is forcing Spain to borrow less, its the markets. If nobody will lend you money, or only lend it at exorbitant rates, then you can’t borrow (and therefore spend) so much. Basic stuff.

If Ireland does not want to be beholden to the bond markets, then fine, we default on our debts and can never borrow again. But you just know the first people on the streets complaining that government spending has been halved overnight will be those who called for default.

If you’re in that much of a hurry, you can go by aeroplanes (a type of iron bird) these days

@Neil You said

“If Ireland does not want to be beholden to the bond markets, then fine, we default on our debts and can never borrow again”

Please provide a list of countries which have defaulted and have never been able to ‘borrow again’

Scaremongering at its worst.

Your scaremongering there Niall. The IMF wanted us to have a partial default but were over ruled by the EU/ECB. It is only a matter of time before Spain is in bailout, same with Italy. As for a country never being lent to again after defaul, that has never happened. Defaults, as restructuring, are going to be the norm in most of Europe over the next 10 years.

The EU had a chance 3-4 years ago to make a decent attempt to save the currency or limit the damage. They did not take that opportunity.

No wonder u are standing in the Sea Daniel. We are already unfortunately being ruled by Europe and the incoming treaty is designed to lock that in permanently.

Irish economic policy from now on is going to be dictated by what keeps BMW’s and Audi’s competitive on the export market.

has anyone considered that maybe I don’t like flying ???

@ Neil, you write:

“…If nobody will lend you money, or only lend it at exorbitant rates, then you can’t borrow (and therefore spend) so much. Basic stuff…”

That’s the case for households & businesses, but it’s only the same for Governments by ideological choice, not economics.

For countries who are issuers of their own currency, they need not borrow at all. Even when they do, this implicit power enables them to set the interest rate, not ‘markets’.

Of course, Ireland is a user of currency, the Euro. But there is still a currency issuing authority, the ECB, which, you should note, just ‘created’ €1,000 billion to lend to banks (for 3 years, but you can bet it will be rolled over as required indefinitely). There is no reason it cannot provide even debt free finance for Euro countries to stimulate recovery, let alone loans at interest several times lower than profiteering private market vultures.

So why are Ireland & all the PIIGS paying punitive interest rates to private markets, greatly damaging our/their ability to restore growth & recover? Pure ideology, driven by the interests of the top few percent who stand to get wealthier by this policy.

Why should we continue to accept this deeply flawed & ideologically/vested interest drive common currency system, when it is devastating the prosperity & prospects of the vast majority of citizens? (And by the way, citizens’ standards of living are falling in Germany too, just not as fast.)

Have you seen the ESM documents setting up this body as one that can demand unlimited sums at 7 days notice & is subject explicitly to no government oversight or even judicial process? Happy with that?

Finally, if we can’t make common cause with other Euro countries to make the radical reforms it needs, then we should revert to our own currency.

Safe in the knowledge, that as +issuers+ of our own currency, we need borrow from no-one to spend in that currency, to quickly recover growth & employment.

So, first step, besides trying to find some political leaders that will actually represent citizens’ interests over the elites, VOTE NO !

Good ole Australians, they are as racist as they ever were.